yeah 18 arbs can 1 shot a condo. but condos cost less gold overall (35 vs 45) and train in 2/3 of the time (18 vs 27 seconds), and once they get on the Arbs its GG.
condos beat champs 1v1 and train faster, cost less to tech into (1450 food and 655 gold for Militia → Champion and Supplies) and Condos only require Pavise (300 food and 150 gold). so not only am i way ahead in resources spent, but right out of the gate in imperial i’m already ready to roar, whereas Champs need 3 minutes to upgrade, which means i’m decimating any produced longswords or 2h swords you have even harder then they beat champions.
Actually we have tried the computation to be sure that the effect on it is negligible. In practice, every resource you loose from the dock is absorbed by the age up. I feel this would make italians way more original.
For instance, it turns out that a rebalance 20-40 is not well balanced since it nerfs too much water…
Let us say that champions are a counter only in the long term. Early imp, meta units (knights, arbs) do better vs condos. Still I am not convinced on the fight with arbs. You should have a consistent numeric advantage if you are going archer in castle age. If you do not have it, well, you loose vs condos but also vs knights. The point of archers is that you need to maintain the mass alive. If you do, you destroy condos (and sometimes even cavaliers). Otherwise you loose even vs light cavalry…
Yes, which in practice takes place in later stages. I agree with you and I think it is good. Otherwise if champions beats condos early imp, there is no reason for condos to exist
Agree, I did not remember you wrote it after the patch 11
The saved resources are the same. Since the main resource is food both for dock and age up, the difference is not big in terms of the single resources.
Overall I am pretty convinced that the difference is very limited. For instance the recent increase of the fishing ship price for Italians was more relevant considering it acts in feudal.
Rebalancing dock and age up has been under discussion for a lot of topics, but I did not find a detailed computation, so I did it myself. Now we have some more precise idea, I would say it is time to discuss it.
Moreover it may be the time to start a discussion on water rebalance in few weeks (after a look to new portos/Koreans).
Imo due to the nature of the condo power window, i wouldn’t buff Italian aging directly. But rather give them something else.
That way if anything the faster age up will only be situationally indirectly affected. (for example free archer armour wouldn’t directly speed up someone going fast imperial, or markets providing +10 pop won’t make a big impact on age up speed etc)
I only just thought of market pop now as some kind of representation of the mercenaries theme. The civ doesn’t have to provide the lodging as they are mercs. And of course 10 is variable. Was just another random consideration that wont make a huge impact.
Remember someone proposed condos returning their gold cost… Imagine how OP they would be now
market gives 10 pop ->50w bonus… not that much imo
having a market generate 20g/min. So 0 market = 0g/min. 1 market = 20g/min. 1k market = still 20g/min. Gold has a very good historical sense, but it can be a different resource
market can research or training something (like they can train archers)
Condos won vs garland EEW even before the buff, if you don’t believe me you can check it in the editor with triggers.
The only EEW that was able to win (barely) was the mayans ones (now they barely lose).
Condos weren’t (and aren’t) a properly counter to eagles, they win in equal numbers and can keep up better, but they don’t survive with much HP even post patch.
You need to have HC behind, and the major advantage that they have over hussars is that they don’t need upgrades, but hussars would still be better (faster and trash).
That’s because they have low melee armor and HP (the same reason why the mayans are the best).
Yeah but you can micro them, or use a meatshield in front.
That 5PA helps but they are far from the levels of eagles and huskarls, they have even less hussars.
Yeah but it would improve their fast imp, and condo rush, and as you can se people are already worried that they are OP.
Champion cost less gold, and less food too with supplies, so you can best them cost effectively.
If you have a bonus (more attack, MA, HP…) you can also beat them in equal numbers.
Or you can outnumber the with light cav, they beat them on equal numbers, but you are spending gold, while he fights you cost effective.
Then there also are CA, scorps and a LOT of UU, so they are far from unbeatable.
It means that arbs deal 5 damage instead of 6, the same that they deal to champs, just for comparison EEW takes 2 damage (while also being faster) and EHuskarls takes 1.
They haven’t become an anti archer unit, they are a bit more resistant.
Almost any melee unit wreck arbs when they get closed, that’s why you have to either micro or use a meatshield.
Probably overall light cav with arbs, CA or any other rage units is the best way to counter condos.
But you need a castle, which is a big investment.
Alone no, of course no, unless you use cavalry (castle age knights beats them, even if just barely).
But you can train them since feudal, and you can micro them, or put some halbs/hussars in front.
and i can use skirms and laugh at your arbs + meatshield.
true, but they are produced MUCH faster then Hussars are as well, and don’t require nearly as many upgrades.
True, various bonus ones win, but Generic lose. and it doesn’t matter if they cost less, because the condos are produced faster and Champs have a total of 1450 food and 655 gold to get to that point. whereas Pavise Condos require 300 food and 150 gold.
Light Cav have a much bigger build time then Condos.
I’ll give you CA, but i’m not so sure on scorps. you’d need a lot of them to be effective, as for Unique Units, that is another thing i’ll give you, but the point was, they aren’t an easy counter.
yeah but how many infantry move at 1.2 speed or slower baseline?
and odds are your meatshield is going to lose to either pikes or skirms.
the role is anti gunpowder. not create potential early imp problems.
its not just Italians though.
consider the following civs in team games.
Goths - 35% cheaper and created insanely fast.
Malians - +3 Pierce Armor
Teutons -+2 Melee Armor
Japanese - Attack 33% faster.
Aztecs - Garland Wars.
Burmese IIRC - +3 Attack
less of an issue because won’t happen nearly as often, but all things to consider.
If the meatshield is between my arbs and you skirms, is the meatshield that absorb the skirms arrows, and the meatshield are hussars they laugh.
A post imp huskarls takes 4 seconds to be produced at a barracks (and cost less gold) and an aztec EEW takes the same as an Italian condos (11s), the time it’s not in favor of the condos.
If they are FU they can act as fantastic meatshields.
But pavise also require 650 stone and 200 seconds of building time for a castle, which slow you down in a fast imp.
If instead both of you have boomed in castle, then you enemy had the time to mass and research the champs upgrades.
But beats them cost effectivly, also they can either be use to outnumber condos or simply as a meatshield.
Yeah that will always be the scorps weakness.
Celts, goth and meso all have infantry that move fast, up to now no one ask for that to be nerfed.
Well, of course it depends on what meatshield you choose or can use, that how the games works, you make decisions, and win if they are the right ones.
It seem that way only because they are new, and we still have to explore ways to counter them.
I played around in the editor to see the counters, and while on first glance they seem to beat every unit in equal numbers (except for knight line) in reality a lot of them can outnumber them, or trade cost effective.
That’s when they they always had their power spike.
But all those civs don’t get pavise, just the +1 attack.
This could work as a last resort, but I don’t think that it’s necessary.
Condos are a team bonus after all.
Also, wich game were you talking about of condos beating EEW? I couldn’t find it, if someone could link it here I would like to whach it, and it could also be useful for the conversation.
I am not worried, I like the Italians now, they are neither too strong, nor too weak, and Condos are proto-Eagles now, that basically become the Italians Imp Age Knight replacement.
