New italians after the update and further ideas for the next ones

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
21

  • Free stoning mining upgrades? (Tiny buff, but useful for fast imperial condottiero gameplay)

  • Every villager can drop every resource type, whatever they are gathering, in every economic building (including dock and market?). (Again, tiny buff but you can use it to lure deer easier or recycling your minecamps or lumberjack camps as mills).

1 Like
22

Those arenā€™t bad bonus at all, but personally, if I had to choose between one of them and one the other two proposed military bonus (free archer armors and +1PA) I would prefer the latter.

23

I like this, weak but cool

1 Like
24

Oh, i would prefer the military one too. This idea was for eco bonus, if needed.

Another military bonus could be to build walls faster, so they remain more safe until castle age.
But walls are hated nowadays, soā€¦

25

Yeah, itā€™s better donā€™t go in that argument, I fear that most people would hate such a bonus, especially on a civ with every defensive tech.

Plus, spanis already cover that bonus.

I fear that itā€™s unlikely that we will get more than one bonus, or even just one at all.

The civ already need more buff, to both the GC (the most important) and another one more general.

I pushed on the +1PA and on the free armor tech since they are more similar to other recent bonus given to other weak civs, like teutons and tartars, so I hope that itā€™s more likely that we get one of them.

26

There is a good chance the condos are just a broken as pre beef 5.7 which by itself can carry Italians on many maps for a fast imp strategy.

Before calling for further Italian buffs we should really wait and see for now

27

There were 3 problems with Italians

  1. Condotteiro SOLVED
  2. Genoese Crossbowman NOT SOLVED
  3. Archer related civilizion bonus NOT SOLVED

Genoese Crossbowman should be trained at 16 and 13 (elite) seconds
Give them +1 free pierce armor in feudal age

You need 650 stone for a Castle to research Pavise +450 resources = 1100 res
It will delay your imp time

4 Likes
28

A fast imp with a castle is not a fast impā€¦ good point

3 Likes
29

Condos were broken before their nerf. Needing a castle and armor upgrade is required to get the unit buffed without out of control.

I agtre on gc train time byaybe 1(2 seconds but not more. Actually condos can only be countered reasonable with heavy cav. Fast trained gc would be insane synergy.

I donā€™t think Italian need an archer buff. They got FU and passive. Thatā€™s all they need. They also have HC!

30

Why do you think so?

Well, most of the potential buff here donā€™t affect the condos directly nor indirectly.

More like 4 seconds less, at least in pair with the longbow, and still more than chukos, rattan or plumes.

And archers and siege, also champions can counter them cost effectively since they cost less in both food and gold.

Yeah thatā€™s more of a joke.

What? And also, italians archers despite pavise, are by a lot behind all other archers civs, and behind most non-archers civs too but that have arbs and better eco (not that it take that much to have a better eco than Italians).

1 Like
31

This is correct. Fortunately infantry civs with good eco are still missing the old condosā€¦ Italians miss both infantry civ bonuses and eco

32

The allied condos received +1 attack, so they received a bit of a buff, but they lack the +1/1 armor, so itā€™s actually a lot more easy to counter them.

1 Like
33

So I can try an eco buff more original, with the assumption that the dock discount is properly tuned to leave italians as they are.

In the past some of us (including myself btw) did a similar proposal for other civs.

The bonus is: starting from feudal age, they receive a gold trickle
How much gold per second? Let us discuss but one relic is a good first guess, since:

  • it is basically one extra vill from feudal (so weaker than old persians, mayans, goths, chinese, which get it before feudal and have also several other military and eco bonuses)
  • it is worse than one real extra vill for flexibility (you cannot use this to collect food if you are going scouts) but it is better for raiding (when you are raided)
  • it is weaker than Turks/Portuguese gold bonus once the get 6 vills on gold (typical for archers). Recall that if you spend all the gold in units, Portuguese have a virtual 25% gold collection boost (more than turks)
  • it is a balanced advantage in a trash war (one relic is balanced, we all know) for a civ which is not a top trash civ, considering also the bad siege
  • it is negligible in castle age and mid imp

Pretty original imo.
My questions:

  • is one relic boost to much or too weak?
  • how much would you nerf the water bonus? Say dock discount down to 30%, or dock discount does not include goldā€¦ something like this :slight_smile:
34

I think that the dock discount shouldnā€™t be lowered in this case, since wood is the more important resource, not gold.

Still, this bonus isnā€™t really in the stile of AoE2, so I personally donā€™t like it.

But if you want an objective opinion, I think that it would neither help them nor makes them OP.

Italians is a heavy gold civ, they donā€™t have Paladins, camels or a UU with an high gold cost.

It would only help them in the late game, when they basically would have a relic more, but in the late game they are fine (they lack halbs, hut the other 2 trash units are FU).

35

Why? It is a virtual extra vill in feudal. It is decent. Much better than now.

This is a positive thing imo. Like Khmer farmers. It is original :slight_smile:

1 Like
36

Which civs do you think now have the best condos (post patch)?

  • Italians (FU, with pavise)
  • Vikings (FU, 96HP, +5 vs cavalry)
  • Malians (7PA)
  • Goths (35%cheap, +1atk vs buildings, trained 20/120% faster)
  • Japanese (FU, atk 33% faster)
  • Aztecs (FU, +4 atk after a UT, train 11% faster)
  • Burmese (FU, +3ATK for free)
  • Celts (FU, 15% faster)
  • Slavs (FU, trample damage)
  • Teutons (FU, +2 MA)

0 voters

Others who havenā€™t anything specific for condos or something too generic (like an eco bonus) havenā€™t been inserted.
If some of those civs have a bonus that compensate for a lacking tech they are considered FU.

2 Likes
37

Probably less, but it would be stuck on gold, so it wouldnā€™t help them a lot, they need a more consistent help in feudal, while in super late game it would means a bit more help for some BBC here and there.

It is just my personal opinion.

38

Vikings have bonus vs cav

1 Like
39

True, sorryā€¦

40

Itā€™s +5 vs cavalry; 4 vs camels