New italians after the update and further ideas for the next ones

I wanted to say that everything makes sense of a +1PA armor buff for archers and skyrms

Ok, so to summarize, you think that +1PA is too little, so you think that +1/1 is better?

What about free archer armor and buffing pavise to +1/2 for arbs only?
I’m just tinkering of various combos of various bonus, just for the sake of discussion…

I’m also reconsidering a bit the faster researching techs bonus, like 50% faster, but I fear that this would be either too strong or too weak…

Sorry I was meaning +1PA to archers and skyrms. Edited.

My idea is:

  • +1 PA for archers only is just a worse Vietnamese bonus. I do not like it that much…
  • +1 PA for archers and skyrms implies better skyrms but worse archers than vietmamese, which is then a different bonus. Once the special techs are researched (pavise and imp skyrm) vietmamese get a superior skyrm while italians a superior arbalest. So the situation switches with respect to early game

Well, I prefer +1PA for skyrms and archers since it provides Italians a range vs everything policy which would be very unique.

Yeah this does not sound that good and I am not sure if it is important on water

Ah ok, so just to be clear, it’s +1PA to Arbs and skirms, not +1/1 to Arbs and skirms.
Right?

Ok now I get it.

Mmm ok…

Yeah, it’s either crazy fast or meaningless…

Yes. +1PA for both. +1 MA would make italian archer paired with the vietmamese one in feudal vs scouts, while viet xbow should still take one hit more from knights.

Also I think in general Italians should be weak to melee civs in the early stages (so +1PA is fine) since if the GC is fixed, civs like franks should have an advantage in feudal/early castle since they will be hard countered in the later stages

Yes I agree, firstly because HP is more important than armor on melee, and that’s is viets territory, secondly, scouts in feudal aren’t that effective vs archers, unless they can pick them up while apart.

Overall this solution (+1PA for Archer-line and skyrms) has several really important advantages:

  • it gives Italians something to play in the early stages on land. They would still remain pretty weak, but at least playable
  • it does not overlap too much with Vietnamese
  • it introduces a very unique range-vs-everything game style for Italians (if the GC TT is buffed ofc)
  • it has an almost negligible effect on water
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Could work…
Still let’s keep the free archer armors as plan B.

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If so, I would restore the old effect of Pavise on skyrms…

My personal preferences are:

  1. +1PA for archer-line and skyrms
  2. free archer armors and pavise affects skyrms again

I think it is pretty cool if there exists a civ countering everything from range

Still I am curious to know what other people involved in the discussion think on +1PA on archer-line and skyrms

Tower shields says hi.

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Tower shied would be much better for skyrms, especially vs archer UUs. But yeah, this may be a further reason to prefer the +1PA bonus (for archers and skyrms) instead. This limits the UTs affecting skyrms…

I would keep it as plan A,but i would be glaf if the other bonus is implemented.

Happy to see we are finally getting to a consensus

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Well, it’s not really up to us to decide, the main purpose of this topic is to bring suggestions for the devs to something that in our opinion needs to be addressed.

Of course if the opinions and idea converge on an near unanimous solution, it’s better, since it brings strength to our argument and avoid confusion…

We can state to have reached that between the +1PA for abrs/skirms and the free archer armors.

The problem is, that is months that the TT for the GC problem was bring up, and it has still to be addressed.

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Also, I don’t think that the next patch is too far, the last time it came was every 2 map rotation, and if I’m not mistaken the last map rotation didn’t have the patch so…

Tower shield would still be better on an absolute value, while +1PA for skirms (and arbs) would be weaker, but free, so lithuanians rightfully would pay for something better than what the Italians get for free.

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Recently, the aoestat update the win rate. Though the sample size is not great, I am pretty surprised Italians has no change in position of win rate (also Portuguese, Turks and Koreans) in Arabia. I agree with a buff but I have a different idea.

The weakness of Italians includes weak early game bonus. Despite 15% age up discount, they often takes longer to play Fast Castle than other civs that have stronger eco bonus (eg. Mongols, Celts etc)

Instead of giving free archer armor or +1/+1 armor as civ bonus, I propose that Italians can trade for 100 Food at the cost of 80 Wood in Market once per age. This gives them more flexibility to age up from Feudal age on. Besides, this reflects their bargaining power like Venice merchants.

Mmm it seems a bit complicated to implement, considering that all trade in the market are made with gold, not between resources.

Also using that on a total of 3 times seems a bit weak.

I was tinkering again with the faster researching techs, and I think it could work if the bonus would include aging up.

Now I know that the faster aging up is the Malay bonus, but hear me out.

All techs would be researched 50% faster (the time would be halved) with the exception of the aging up, that they would be researched only 20% faster, that would help them on advancing faster, but they still wouldn’t be on the level of Malay.

Of course the percentages could be modified a bit up and down, like they could be both settled at 30%.

I still prefer the other 2 bonus, but this (even if weaker) could work too.

I don’t know, I’m not sure, I want to hear your opinion on that.

Also, if the people have the perception that italians hasn’t changed a lot, that makes me think that either the players didn’t bother to test the new condos (that they may seem the same) or that they aren’t for real improved.