Agreed
Fine
I was thinking of excluding GC. It is similar to berbers/magyars discounts. But I am not a big fan of this, it is just and option if we think an eco bonus is more desirable than a military one…
This can definitely work and if you extend it to GC, you fix all Italian problems in one bonus…
This buff can be broken. Archers can be massed much easily, making Italians deadly in feudal/castle age. Btw, Are you Italian?
i’d be absolutely fine with that. i actually think italians are in a good spot and that they do not need changes. i’m also fine with them being conservative, no point in changing things for the sake of it and maybe destroy the balance of the game
i think they are fine. excellent of water, very good (even tho not top tier) on closed map (like arena) and normal on open maps. they have their role and their place in the game, no need to buff them to make them stronger in another setting
Edit: the only thin i’d maybe change is the TT of GC, but again, some pros think the unit is fine and that they shouldn’t change and i tend to trust em
Are you sure? Italians have a very bad eco, so I do not see the risk of a feudal spam
xbow don’t cost that much and having the number advantage in a xbow war forces the enemy into skirms and or/mangos. it can be really strong.
Edit: i just read 40% faster. considering that you generally go for 2 archery into 3 archery in castle + university, you are basically allowing them to stay on 2 archery and going straight for something university plus something else. this could really snowball out of control really fast, since you’d have the same number of xbow with balistics with a minor investment (and yes 175 wood in early castle is a lot) with them supposedly having already the number advantage from feudal.
and that’s without counting the fact that you’d reach the critical mass way too fast
Perhaps italians could get at least a TT reduction for the elite GC upgrade, right now it is a terribly overpriced upgrade, giving only minor stat upgrades. Personally, the one thing I would change about italian tech tree is giving them siege engineers, so they have at least ok onagers. Right now they only have cheaper BBCs going for them, but that’s not really enough in many cases.
I know that the discussion has stagnated a bit, but hey, if people enjoy it, then let’s the discussion continue…
Also, I onestly was hoping to hear more feedback on the condos, since I had few chances to test them myself.
I’m onestly sure that even this month Italians won’t be addressed… but you know, hope is the last thing to die…
True, didn’t think about that, but it would work.
It could, but onestly Italians don’t have that strong of an eco compared to mayans, Britons or viets, it’s more like that they would get the ame amount of xbows that they can train now in less time.
Yes I’m, and yes I know that I could be a bit biased towards the Italians, but I’m trying to be as much neutral as I consciously can.
Onestly, I would settle for only that too, despite I think they would need more, that is the most important thing, and it would be better than nothing.
Yes this is true, maybe it should be split in the ages. 20% is balanced for britons having a superior eco. Maybe 30/35/40 or similar. The thing I like about the proposal is that it fixes GCs while giving some sort of game play to Italians, which currently are extremely generic up to imp and with no eco advantage…
I would prefer multiple short threads, which is much easier to read.
I didnt mean you are biased. I am just curious and wondering why you seems familiar with Italians tradition.
@DoctBaghi, you can evaluate a new thread where just summarizing the main concepts of this one, if you think it may work
which is a really, really strong buff. having the lead in a xbow war is huge, having the possibility to mass more numbers also gives you the critical mass earlier against melee units. with 40%, like you proposed, you are giving them a “free” archery range every 2 they make and that’s way too much considering how cheap archers are.
Plus, they are not supposed to be strong on open maps dude, they are already stong as hell in water maps, in certain hybrid maps and very strong in closed maps.
I’m italian too, and yet I think they are perfectly fine. They are simply not supposed to beat mayans on arabia, just like mayans are not supposed to beat italians on islands
it’s the only land buff i’d give them at best. they are fine, especially after the condos buff
no, no and no
the italians are fine on land. they are not supposed to be strong there. why should they be even more specialized than they are. they are a naval civ, with faster age up (and even if you don’t like and think it’s negligible (and no, it’s not, especially in closed maps where it allows you for faster builds) with a lot of options in feudal, castle and early imp. they also have good archers, so why do we need to give them a specialization for arabia when they do not need one
I could make a new one, but then there is the risk of spam.
Yes I’m italian, I live near Venice.
If it’s what people want sure, but it will take a bit of time, so don’t expect it right away, in the meantime you can continue here, when it’s ready I’ll link it here.
I know that they shouldn’t be OP in open land maps (or any land maps for what is worth) but they should neither be completely trash.
On water maps they are strong, but it’s their only strong context, and water maps are rarely seen.
On hybrid maps they do ok, but not even near other water civs like persians, japs, Malay, vikings and so on…
Good to know, however I never said that they should beat mayans, I also said that I’m trying to be as less biased as I can.
What do you think of them?
It allows you to save more resources than going up faster.
They are pretty mediocre for an archer civ.
They are not trash. That’s the point, they are perfectly fine.
It depends on the maps. Look at four lakes, where pros consider them top tier
They are strong and they giving a very good power spike to italians in early imp
it also allow you to go up faster if needed. You know that being up faster with arbs and bombard cannon can be crucial in maps like arena?
they have extra armor and full upgrade. Not incredibly strong but fine.
I get you guys would like to see italians more used on land maps, but it’s simply not their strong feat. They are exactly what they are supposed to be: a B tier civ
I disagree, they don’t have any eco bonus, they don’t have any powerful units, or standard units above average, their only unit discount is on a unit that is rarely seen (HC).
Their cheap age up is fine, but when you compare with most of other bonus is really nothing too great…
Yet Italians are barely seen in four lakes, while all other hybrid civs are constantly picked.
In arena Malay can really go up faster, italians don’t really shine, they have the cheap BBC but that’s it, no good siege or really powerful units.
Vikings, japs, aztecs with they FU (or almost) and no bonus, despite not even being archers civs, are actually better on going archers thanks to their great eco.
That’s the point, they aren’t a B civ, they are an F civ. I don’t want them to be OP, just decent, nothing less, nothing more.
Viper kindly disagrees with you, and so do other pros
Well, I’m not a pro, despite that, I like to think that I can still have options of my own, like you do.
And even if they don’t think that they are an F, if don’t recall it wrong, they were probably put around the C tier (depending if they use the S tier list) on all other tier lists (arabia and arena, plus both of their UU on a UU their list were pretty low).
My feeling is that Italians were fine in HD. Their early game was on a similar level than other civs. After that Persians, Teutons, Khmer, Viets, Saracens, Lithuanians, Tatars, Goths, and recently even Portuguese and Koreans (which were similar to italians) got very solid buffs. Then Italians have fallen behind.
I am strongly against a Khmer-like buff. But I feel that just a small push in the early stages to make them comparable to other non-top civs in the reference game mode (arabia) is necessary (a similar issue holds for Turks imo, but Italians seem to have more love in the community).
I agree that they have a place, but they are simply too bad in standard conditions. A 75f saving in feudal is nothing, we all know.
Also every player joining this discussion is experienced enough to see that some of the proposal buffs (I can repeat the +PA for archers and skyrms to mention the one with more consensus) will never make this civ even comparable with other top picks. Which is fine imo. At most they will become a bit similar to viets but with weaker eco… Which is a level 100% acceptable for a civ having other specializations. What is not fine is a civ with almost no bonuses until imp in arabia…
Viper’s list, using the S tier. Would you look at that, they are in B tier.
We are all allowed to have an opinion, but we should also accept that there are people like the pros who know this game way better than us. The fact that Viper says that they are fine has way more weight than what you and I think simply based on the fact that he knows and undestarnds this game way, waaaay better than bith of us
It was in the March patch where Persians were op because of their faster working TCs and docks in the Dark Age
yes, but what has changed for italians except the condos buff? Nothing. They are still a B tier civ
