Yes but it’s really difficult to balance it, it would require a lot of testing, there is the risk of both overbuff and overnerf.
We are talking about eco bonus here, and while I would prefer the other 2 bonus (that were suggested after a lot of discussions and all other eco bonus were ruled out as a compromise) I’m open to discuss eco buff, just not some random one.
Also, free armor is a bit of an eco boost, since is resources spared.
I am trying to find a solution you approve 11. Pick this:
I am curious to see if people think this is OP or UP.
@UpmostRook9474 here a possible eco bonus. I agree that you can just nerf the dock discount to some value. Say to 33%. If it turns out it is overnerfed, just buff it in the next patch. If 33% is too much, just nerf it to the next patch
Possibile implementation of the buff:
I know I sound harsh versus yours ideas but now I was talking to @UpmostRook9474, since he proposed to lower the dock discount, but with no eco bonus suggestions to know if the nerf was balanced.
Still buffing the water thought, since less costing vills and cheaper FS can let you boom a lot.
Also, I want to point out that those suggestions came after a lot of discussion and different arguments, eco buff were ruled out as a compromise, since most people were against them.
The +1/1 and free armor (and the reduction on TT for the GC) were the compromise on almost everyone agreed, that another reason why I push that way.
I like at least you do that in a constructive way, never mind
I find them boring, so my feeling is that an out of the box buff can be better for the game. Again, I would be happy to see the armor buff. But still Italians would be a weak version of Vietnamese. Probably I may like this more than other people since I like viets, but having a worse version of another civ is a bit sad…
At that point it’s not even worth it.
It’s not necessary.
You reduce it because you want it to stack it up with the new bonus right?
However, trust me, people will rant upon this, if you want to be sure try to suggest it in more general and more visited topics.
I saw much more weaker bonus proposed by me for the Italians trashed.
This isn’t aoe3 or AoM, it’s not just for the meccanics, but the player base it also a lot more conservative, trust me.
I wrote it in the wrong way maybe:
If the discount is 15% now, you nerf it to 10%. Then the new bonus puts it to 15% again. Same for all other nerfs but the dock tech
Is 5% discount too strong or too weak?
But the discount shouldn’t affect ships?
Or maybe I read wrong, however it always a discount… and that doesn’t make me crazy.
Most of other civs have some unique characteristics on their standard units, italians don’t, and that bothers me a little.
However, I’m personally not against a eco buff (except for the discount kind), I just fear that people won’t accept it, for both water and in general.
I prefer asking something small and gain it than asking something too out of the ordinary and having people that both before and after the patch rant about it utill the buff is removed.
No no it could work on paper, it’s not a bad bonus in general, but there are 2 things in my opinion:
-Italians already have only discount bonus, it would be nice something different.
-their units are standard, even more than portos.
-I’m almost certain that the player base will oppose this.
Italians could actually become the civ of discounts. It is not a negative thing, imo still better than a vietmamese copy, despite I would be happy with +1PA…
Some civs have standard units but with a general buff (like chinese). Other have a restricted tech tree but better (britons or franks).
Italians seem to me closer to the first one
I think it should be a buff that is more unique and fun rather than mundane across the board unit discounts/armor ups etc
It should be a stat buff to a unit-line, that makes Italians more fun and less like other civilizations on a land map.
Also preferably something that gives Italians another different unit-line to use, making them more multidimensional(rather than one dimensional) on land. Much like how the previously one-dimensional Turks recieved buffed CA. Or the Persians recieved Trashbows. Or the Vikings being given Spearchamps/Spearzerks(Chieftains)
These could be civ bonuses such as:
1. Archer Projectiles move 25% faster(partial ballistics before ballistics hits)
2. Skirmishers are created instantly starting Castle Age.
3. Scorpions cost 300 W in imperial age.
4. Siege Towers cost no gold.
5. Scorpions +5 bonus damage vs Cavalry.
6. BBC move 20% faster.
7. Foot Archers “respond more quickly to fire commands”(frame delay reduced by 5).
8. HC move 20% faster.
The military bonus is dangerous because it is easy to make the already good units too stronger after full upgrading in the end. If the bonus is make some tech cheaper or some units more powerful in only a period that will be fine.
Everyone focus on the archer and the water, seeming to forget that Italy is the center of a large religion and there had made the best European cavalry armor in the Middle age, by the way.
one of the below:
Unless it is a stone related bonus… Or a villager bonus
Yeah, well no, there isn’t another civ that has all bonus of the same kind, I don’t see why the italians should be the only one.
Italians arbs would beat viets arbs, their UU are different, italians have condos, viets have BE, they aren’t more similar than mongols, huns and tatars are similar among themselves.
Yeah but chinese have super eco, and a UU is a beast, also, technically, they have the demolition ships have more HP, so they have a standard unit with a unique characteristic.
+1PA isn’t that strong in my opinion, but if you think soo.
What about the free archer armor bonus though, that doesn’t make their archer more powerful than they are now.
I just one propose that that they could get 50% ballistics, or AR upgrades… I spare you the rant that follows…
Thay is a straigh buff to their water play.
And that’s is a straight nerf to their water play.
Basically a chinese bonus on steroids.
for archers +1 MA or +2MA has the same effect (same numer of hits), so there is no point on making it +2.
So free armor could work, it’s some resources and blacksmith time saved (not too much) that give you each age a small window of time where your archers are better.
More stone → more FU tower → more coast/island control + potential landings and Trush
Cheap vills + cheap FS → more vills + more FS → more resources → more ships
Both bonuses affect water game very indirectly.
Of course stone bonus means coast control but that only impacts before cannon galleon comes into play, and costs some villager time to build. It is similar to say that any military bonus cam affect water game because of landings. I see the stone bonus more useful for obtaining pavise faster rathen than for water maps.
Towers are very useful against ship after researching heatshot. In fact, if towers were so good against ships we should see koreans or other towers civs on water more often). Thats the reason i said a stone bonus should t affect their water game. Maybe a bit, but it would impacct land game much more.
And the villager bonus could be anything different to a discount (which indians have), like “villagers regenerate HP”. It could be. A defensive bonus for the economy instead of a direct economic bonus.
I agree it is possible. I mean, Italians are stacked by the gold discount. Everything you propose could potentially improve their island play. But then? Why don’t give them a bonus and then nerf their dock discount?
Btw, @JokerPenguin593, this affects vills as you suggest!
If this is not enough for their late game (I agree with @DoctBaghi on this) you can still buff pavise for the late game. But currently Italians need much more eco help.
Still I am favorable to the +1PA option since it provides a land boost in the early stages
In this case, the easier (but “boring”) way to buff them would be to increase their age discount and decrease their dock discount a bit.
Numbers can be messed around to make their bonuses give a bonus similar final discounts on water than before, but larger on land maps.
This would help them to solidify their fast imperial possibilities.