New patch / dumbing down of the game / Devs plz revert some changes

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

Hello everyone,

I am Falutier321, ~1600 1v1 rating, having played over 6000 games on DE since its release.

In my opinion, the change for Town Centers and miltary units beeing able to kill animals so that the food is NOT lost is a truely terrible change for the game.

a) Not everyone likes laming, I get it, but beeing able to kill hunt is CRUCIAL and surely part of the game on maps like Socotra or BF teamgames. Laming is part fo the game especially in the Pro scene in tournament games. I personally love seeing some dark age action, and beeing able to kill hunt is a big advantage in going early Militia, especially now that chicken are a thing.

The second reason is a more general one and it also is the main reason for my critique about another feature introduced in this patch:
A pre-warning before a player gets housed.

The pre notification before getting housed aswell as just beeing able to lure a boar and kill it with the TC under your Town Center are both parts of a general trend within the last couple of years in Age of Empires. So this is what makes argument B):

Auto-everything and the general dumbing-down of the game.

I get why it is a goal to make the game easier to play and more accesible to new players, and I used to be a new player myself, not on DE but on HD Edition and the for some years on Voobly. What kept me interested in this game for almost 10 years now was basically how difficult it is to actually master this game, trying to improve and getting better. I remember when I saw Vipers gameplay on YT the first time and it was incredible to see his mechanics and the control he had over his units. Trying to find out how he does boar lures, how he circles through his TCs and uses small mechanics to increase his efficiency was amazing to see and I tried to copy as much of it as I could.
The general difficulty of this game, from mechanics to strategy and decision making was what was intriguing for me. There is a reason why age of empires 2, and especially the pro scene, is much bigger then age 1, 3, 4 or AoM is that its has many things which define logic, but produce the best highlights there are - crazy quickwalls, weird traps, back in the day the perfect mangonel shots with the delete technique, and there is so much more. Making the game too easy and accessible is IMO also only a thing for players who are new into the game but want to play competitely:

  • The casual player playing against the AI only wont really care about this at all, ff they even realize the change. Getting housed is certainly not the end in the world for them.

  • I think most players over an elo of 1300, and certainly the pro scene and everyone who likes competitive play wont agree with this change, I think especially the BF community wont like it.

  • It is also a bad change for watching pro player tournaments. Sure, someone might say in a pro 1v1 if a players accidently kills his boar he is at a huge disadvantage from the get go, but plenty of times have we seen Hera or someone alse make a sick comeback after killing a boar by accident.
    In my opinion this is just a thing that can happen which makes a game go into an unexpected direction, it forces adaption from players to their mistake, its just another turning point that adds variety to how a competitive game can play out.

This, aswell as the option of killing hunts with militia or epicely sniping a Boar with a Scout, means a total bigger number of less streamlined games, more directions the game can take from an early point on and in therefore in general much more entertainment.

I ask the Devs to overthink their decision, especially regarding the change in killing Hunt- there is absolutely no shame in reverting a decision that turned out not to be the correct one, and I am still very thankful for the work the Devs are doing!

I am curious about opinions on this

6 Likes
2

I liked this change.

The option of attacking enemy herdables and rotting them is still there, so the timing requirement of killing boars in the most optimal spot is also still there.

The ā€œWeaken boars with TC then hop with villagers to inflict the last damageā€ part was just unnecessary complexity that didnā€™t enhance gameplay. If some pros didnā€™t like the change, nothing is stopping them from still using the same trick. But Iā€™m here to play a strategy game, not deal with some unnecessarily complex and repetitive animal-luring chore. Same as chicken funneling.

The game isnā€™t just for the pro players, who make up less than 1%. Majority of their reactions are also emotional and clouded by their current moods.

Hereā€™s what happened to Hera at 5:43, which ended up costing him the game.

3 Likes
3

actually THAT is the only thing I fid annoying, the TC killing the own sheep

4

This is actually a thing now? So, Iā€™ve been being careful to avoid that for no good reason? Nice. More simplification.

Iā€™m not sure what is meant by getting ā€˜housedā€™?

But, the dumbing down of AoE2 is equivalent to, imo, FPS ā€œgamesā€ that are put on rails. Devs for those FPS games have a certain narrative and experience they are proud of and love so much they feel compelled to force all players to go on the same amusement park ride. Clap and cheer the whole way through their game, as you look left and right from the track, marveling at their amazing work. Every asset, every piece of dialogue, and every other bit of content they created MUST be seen by the player, otherwise itā€™s seen as wasted effort. No emergent gameplay, as that would mean players are finding ways to do things outside the boundaries of what the devs want to force you to experience. No climbing over little boxes, hills, or walls. Always bumping into invisible walls. Get back on that track!

For AoE2, dumbing things down and making oodles of ā€œautoā€ means erasing the depth that the game once had, so, putting it on rails. Eliminating features that were designed for more advanced players, or that players discovered after hundreds of hours of gameplay, or happened upon by accident are good things. I donā€™t quite understand why devs or the decision-makers find the need to make every player have the exact same experience, no matter if youā€™ve been playing for 5 minutes or 25 years. So every player, no matter if youā€™re 5 years old, 30 years old, or 80 years old, can pick up the game and play perfectly, no surprises, everything simplified for you, from Day 1.

Maybe if AoE2 were just invented today, sure try that. But itā€™s a game and part of a franchise with decades of history. Why keep chipping away at the depth of it. Itā€™s becoming more and more a 2D flat plane of simplicity. Streamlined to the nth degree so my thousands of hours of gaming experience are wiped away in favor of simplifying the game so someone who buys it today, or who is clearly not as good as me, or who is clearly not as passionate or involved in the franchise as me, is on near-equal footing as me. Great plan. Strip away that depth to put it on rails. Launch a match and let the auto, simplified magic flow through and swiftly whisk me through the match. If this continues, Iā€™ll someday soon be able to beat Hera and Viper, no doubt, lol. Even though Iā€™m nowhere near as good as them or the huge field of good and great players out there. On a MP level, Iā€™m pretty mediocre, but such changes to bridge the gap more and more over time make me closer and closer to as good as them.

I wish this game could have ā€œDifficultyā€ settings, like 99% of other games.

  • ā€œEasyā€ difficulty would make auto, simplified everything. Accidentally kill herdables with military or donā€™t know any better? No problem. Gather away. Not sure how to scout or you canā€™t multi-task very easily in the game yet? No problem, letā€™s hold your hand. Click this ā€˜auto scoutā€™ button.
  • Normal, Hard, and Expert difficulties could exist for those who have played the game longer than 10 minutes. Broadening and deepening the gameā€™s features and manual or advanced features, and hearkening back more and more to the roots of AoE2.
    • Several ā€œEasyā€ difficulty players would eventually rejoice in the fact to learn that the game has so much more to offer them than the first 10 minutes did. The better they get, the more they see, the more breadth and depth theyā€™d want to experience.
    • Unfortunately, as it stands and as the game continues to get simplified, theyā€™ll learn the game has nothing more to offer. The streamlined simplicity they saw their first time playing is the same as 30 years later, possibly even less breadth and depth 30 years from now as this continues
5

imo, all you need to see to understand the negative side effects of auto everything mentality WE currently employs (except curiously in aoe4) is to look at how it affected AOM, theyā€™ve gone far across the line there and its clear it was a wrong approach

2 Likes
6

Iā€™m in favour of garrisoned town centres not spoiling meat when they kill an animal. It doesnā€™t make any sense that a villager on foot shooting an arrow at an animal doesnā€™t spoil the meat, but if they shoot the same arrow from inside a town centre, it does. Itā€™s a nonsensical inconsistency that doesnā€™t add anything worthwhile to the game ā€“ just a quirk of old game mechanics designed without boar luring or deer pushing in mind.

Itā€™s only in the latest PUP.

Running out of housing space so you canā€™t train any more units.

I found these kinds of things mildly entertaining the first couple of times I saw them, but tiresome after that. Thereā€™s only so many times I can watch the Viper trap someoneā€™s scout inside gate foundations before the novelty wears off.

5 Likes
7

Hope it stays there

Oh, wow. A pre-alert for that?? Letā€™s just put the game on cruise control and be done with it

It completely removes the boar hunting risk, though. One villager can just sit inside the TC and shoot out the window from their living room couch to take a boar out. That can be done today if careful, hop out at last second, but it just makes it even easier. If itā€™s implemented, I will have far less incentive to manually waste 3-5 other villagersā€™ time shooting a boar

Iā€™d actually prefer TCs not be able to shoot boar at all. Not sure what the point of it is in the first place except make the playerā€™s life simple. Iā€™m in favor of risk/reward. I wish boar were harder to take down.

Speaking of risk/reward, why do most or all SP maps no longer seem to have wolves? It used to be risky to go build a market off in the corner with one villager so Iā€™d send two. Same with wall-building at land bridges. Feels like an eternity since I last saw a wolf or some apex predator that I actually need to worry about. A topic for a different thread, but the game is so easy gameplay-wise these days itā€™s nearing comical

8

I dislike this change as well.

9

For TC change, I think its good for players but bad for viewers.

It is actually pretty frustrating if you shoot boar with TC, esp. because the game bugs / lags.
On the other hand winning opponent that shot their boar feels cheap

Agree on the unit change being unnecessary.

10

Nomad, itā€™s really handy to kill a Boar when you only have four vills for example

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Orā€¦ just pick berries, get deer, chickens, sheep, fish, and the like until you have enough villagers to take out a boar safely.

Do steps A and B to get to C, imo

12

Well no, the boar can still attack, you still need to lure the it with an ungarrisoned villager, and (I think) you canā€™t get away with garrisoning all your villagers because the boar will lose aggro and run away.

Risk versus reward is all well and good when thereā€™s a genuine choice about whether to take the risk. But the risk associated with not luring a boar is so much greater than the risk associated with luring one that thereā€™s no meaningful choice involved here.

I find this very odd. Youā€™d prefer the game mechanics to be more inconsistent? Why should boars have some kind of special status where town centres canā€™t shoot them? It makes no sense.

I agree that this isnā€™t a good choice. I think they were recently readded to Arabia though.

You say that, but then

Sounds like itā€™s bad for players and viewers. Why would you want to watch someone get a cheap win?

13

Someone suggested that animals killed by military buildings/units only have 50 per cent of the food available, which would not be a bad proposal at all

14

there is absolutely no shame in reverting a decision that turned out not to be the correct one

This is a wonderful sentiment, OP. Too bad nobody with any decision-making power over the game agrees.