Honestly for me timeframe matters far less in AOM than it does in AOE2 for example, because AOE’s settings are defined by timeframe; 1 ancient, 2 medieval, 3 colonial/early modern, 4 medieval. AOM isn’t defined by timeframe at all; it’s defined by mythology. So as long as it is a real, practiced mythological system (aka no fantasy settings like Lord of the Rings mythology or something) and no largely practiced modern religions (especially no monotheistic faiths given the whole major god/minor god system) its fair game no matter the time period in my eyes.
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It still matters. At least so far it has been confined to antiquity. And I see no gain intentionally breaking that theme. The game is far from saturated, unlike AOE2. The only reason I could think of is pOpUlaR
And I think more people would be against an Arthurian or crusader civ with high medieval aesthetics. Not because it’s not popular, but because people can more easily see how it’s off. For Japan most people just don’t understand its historical progression. So they find excuses. Same logic why they fit 3K into AOE2.
Tales of the Dragon had gunpowder and Qing Dynasty deities and myth units. They fixed it in retold. That’s good. I don’t know why they’d make the same mistake right after correcting an earlier one.
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I mean, the Norse civ was largely based on…lets say 900 AD Norse; just before the Christianization of Scandinavia began to really take hold. Wouldn’t exactly call that antiquity.
And I will moderately edit what I said, I don’t really think there should be firearms in AOM, so you can use that to draw a line wherever you please, but at the same time there is no evidence of firearms in this civ, and other existent civs already depend on pop-culture depictions (Mycenean greeks in the Trojan Wars with later-era armor styles for example)
I’m willing to pretty confidently say far more people would be perturbed if this Japanese civ didn’t have Samurai, for example, because certain things are just expected in pop-culture. You can call that outlook ignorant or culturally-insensitive if you want, but at the end of the day its still the expectation, and AOM already has a track record of infusing pop-mythology in to actual mythology, so I don’t think this is unprecedented territory we’re entering.
My point is that these two examples are off because one wasn’t an actually practiced mythology, and the other is based on a monotheistic faith that is currently practiced, not because of pop-culture elements. the base bones of the Japanese pantheon are mythology that was actually practiced, and they layered pop-culture-recognizable elements in to it, just like horned helmet vikings into Norse, hoplites into Greeks, and…I guess elephants into Egyptians (I don’t know how pop-culture that one is, but I also am not sure the Egyptians ever used elephants; I don’t think they did in fact, I think their cavalry was almost exclusively chariots, I think any pop-culture connection just comes from Egypt being in Africa and elephants being tied to Africa; far more of a stretch than Japanese having Samurai)
900s is still close enough to antiquity, especially when compared to 1500s.
Also, the Volsunga Saga, one of the major sources of Nordic mythology, for example, despite written much later, is set in the time of the migration. So it’s still at least about antiquity
Like the Romance of Three Kingdoms or Arthurian legends (and Illiad too), they are later people’s portrayal of what happened much earlier.
But those samurai armor (and I believe definitely the ninja look too) coincided with gunpowder. That’s why they’re off.
You cannot add a Napoleonic era highlander for a potential Celtic civ and give it a spear and say it’s fine.
I’m more talking about the aethetics not mythology.
For example, even if you have a civ about Jewish or Christianity “mythology” but with crusaders, or Celtic mythology but with gallowglass and hobelars, that’s still off.
And classical or early medieval Japanese was not poorly documented unlike classical Nordics. They could do a little research of focus on that, not just copy the “popular” sengoku Japan again. Like, the medieval AOE is sengoku. The early modern AOE is sengoku. Now finally a classical era Age game, and it doesn’t have to be sengoku again.
Bushido was also a much later thing. They could well base the civ on early Buddhism, court poetry, and remnants of earlier animism rituals, etc. A lot of very stylish and unique things.
I mean, much like “woads raider” in AOE2 or Vikings in AOM. It’s acceptable they had limited sources and had to turn to popular culture in 1990s and early 2000s. But they could do better in 2020s.
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Age of Mythology is not and never has been set in a specific real historical time period.
Egyptians are set roughly in the 1000s BC.
Greeks are set around 800–200 BC.
Atlanteans are obviously fictional, but probably take the most of their unit inspiration from Romans, which means we’re looking largely at 00s–200s AD.
Norse are set around 800–1000 AD.
That’s a range of over 2000 years from the oldest to the newest of the pre-Retold civs. Expanding it by another 500 years is not a big deal.
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The more recent the time frame the bigger the deal it is as human advancement is not linear in time. Think about today and 500 years ago, definitely a big deal. 1000BC and 500BC not really a big deal. This period is exactly where things start picking up with things like gunpowder and the printing press. So I do share the sentiment of FocalPenny96393. It would have been soooo refreshing to not fall back on the samurai.
It will probably still work though, as we are less likely to perceive this difference if it’s not from cultures we’re familiar with. My biggest worry is feature creep and OPness, which, judging from the Chinese expansion, will be a thing 
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I think I have already made it very clear that I’m talking about exactly the ancient era not the sheer time span. And ancient history happens to be pretty long.
By your logic, since AOE1 starts from the stone age (could be hundreds of thousands years BC) to the end of antiquity, it’s nothing if we add a WW2 civ which is only 1500 years later.
That’s exactly my point.
Many people had no problem with a Qing dynasty jiangshi in Tales of the Dragon either, just because it was “stereotypically ancient Chinese”. And that doesn’t make it fine.
So they basically have the Norse favour mechanic but not for favour?
Though will it be useful after you unlocked all unit upgrades?
Also will that mean that in a campaign mission where you are limited to a certain age you will still be able to unlock all unit line upgrades? Even in a no build mission? Could be interesting.
If that’s your issue, then you’d need to take issue with the norse too. They’re from 900AD. Gunpowder weapons like those that existed in Tale of the Dragons existed in China as early as the 6th century AD. Meaning 300 years before the Vikings were a thing.
We think of gunpowder weapons as modern, but predecessors of the muskets have existed for quite some time, fireworks, firelances, paper-cannons, hwatchas, have been a thing for quite some time.
Not nearly as effective as the things Napoleon used, but based on the same chemistry and physics.
And many of those early gunpowder weapons were outperformed by the bow and arrow.
The firearms that became OP in the 1500s and later are the reason we think of guns as something incredibly powerful and modern, and if there’s an ancient or even medieval world that has even a hint of them in them breaks our immersion, because we believe them to be so modern and powerful, we exect them to drive swords, spears and bows into obsoletion instantly. Which actually didn’t happen for several hundred years of gunpowder weapons existing. Pike and shot was a thing, and it was effective. Fire lances were useful in a specific context, but next to useless everywhere else, etc.
The shift between armies fighting all with bow and sword to them fighting all with guns and cannons wasn’t as clear or as swift as people usually think it was. From the first confirmed gunpowder weapon to the first army to win a battle using only gunpowder weapons lie more than a thousand years. Not 50 years or less, as our common cultural bias may have us believe.
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Aztecs are the num 1 wanted civ, and they are medival from1300 to 1500.
The time frame should not be strict, but the execution and general vibes matters.
If for instance they would add gun powder and other modern feeling stuff then sure it would feel wrong.
But samurai shinobi bushido can all pass as non modern.
Sure those are modern ish terms, but they are practically similar to- royal gaurd, spy/assassin, and fighting principles. They are rooted in old ideas that pass as antique even though they where not antique in japan.
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I do. I think they should change at least the kite shields
And original AOM was made in early 2000s. We are in 2020s now. I suppose both developers and players would have more sources of information other than 80s Hollywood.
No. Fire lance was developed in 12-13th century. And the Chinese myth in the game was almost centered on prehistorical legends. Very unfitting. And it was removed in Retold. Guess why.
Gunpowder was used in Japan as late as 1500s. Which was the time of ninja and the popular image of samurai
Mesoamerica technology did not develop much from antiquity to “middle ages”, or we know very little.
Instead, we know very well what Japan was like centuries before the sengoku period.
Then basically any civ could have samurai shinobi bushido.
Ancient Rome: royal guard check, spy check, fighting principle check
Revolutionary USA
WW2 Soviet
Old Republic
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Is it us or ussr if its without guns cannons and what not? I think not.
And the whole point is MYTHOLOGY. I don’t think misha the bear passes as mythology.
And yea romans chinese and other empires had those too. Thats the point! Thats why its fine to have them with the japanese- it doesnt feels out of time cause even if japanese did not have them at the time, other civilizations did. Those are old principles.
How to create a proper civ in aom?
- Take an actuall mythology
- represent its civ as something that passes as antique while covering its signature units, architecture etc properly so its still represented in a true way.
- make it payable, like adding Balistra for norse.
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Well if you can put an early modern ninja and call him antique just because he is not carrying a gun, then a Soviet guy with an ushanka and a big axe is also antique.
We are talking about being NOT antique.
Tales of the Dragon had Jiangshi in a Qing Dynasty clothing. It is still “antique” by Western stereotype. But it is not.
Let’s think about it this way:
They made a Roman civ with:
Knights, literally called that, with Renaissance plate armor, because knightly code stems from antiquity
A pope, because he is Roman
Mafia but with a dagger
Then still ancient Roman gods
That is what the “sengoku Japanese mythology” feels like. You think it is fine only because you are not familiar with it.
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In the last paragraph just ask yourself if that’s what represents romans.
Like i sayed:
Proper mythology
Antique vibe
And actually representing key features from the civ.
Pope contradicts the myth, knights had a better Roman name (its like calling the shinubi “agent” or whatever) and mafia is like making japanese have a student units who has to get high education- steriotipical and insulting.
So you managed to fail in 2.5 points out of 3.
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Okay let’s correct it:
A unit called eques but wearing Renaissance armor
A unit called pontiff but wearing papal robes
A unit called arcani but a mafia with daggers
Good for you now?
And bushido and ninja are not antique names either. Nor are their looks. You think they are antique just because pOP cUlTUrE. Like how people think kung fu or sushi or General Tso’s chicken was antique
“Warrior codes” like Bushido didn’t come into existence before the Kamakura shogunate. Samurai on foot and with the typical armor in your imagination is early modern. They were horse archers in classical times. Ninja as specialized agents was a modern fiction. There weren’t even ninjas in the sengoku period and those spies/agents were far less institutionalized for a special unit.
We know very well what classical Japan is like, and you can easily design a proper classical Japanese civ without reusing those PoP CuLtuRe cliches for the fourth time in the series
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Good! Hyped for the new civ. Too bad it wasnt aztec thought…
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i personally think @FocalPenny96393 is quite reasonable and i agree with most of his arguments. i also think - especially now in comparison to the new chinese - feel a bit too new and “popculture” (i mean its not that the old devs did this too and even worse (yes not everything was great or “better” in old AoM a some claim…) like eggy stuff or the completely mixed up atlanteans. i really hoped back then before release of retold they would change atlanteans and change units like leviathan, scorpianman, anubites and so on. but they kept it and yes, i think they made them much better but even this makes some mixes like it seems now japanese more justified it shouldn’t get out of controle or they should mix all other cultures more too and be less “strict” everywhere.
also about the confirmed and shared stuff:
so happy i was one of those who speculated right about the major gods. like their designs (even more than chinese where i still think fuxi should look more inline with nuwa which mean younger and snake tail)
but about their godpowers my immediate impression was:
Amaterasu GP: sounds weak and boring
Tsukuyomi GP: sounds overpowered (and yes i partly don’t get it lol)
Susanoo GP: simple but effective (a mix between Zeus GP and Oranos GP it seems) nothing crazy, really new and interesting but still cool and better than Amaterasu GP
but i want to stay as open minded as possible. 
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The extension comes out on 30 September, which is quicker than I thought! What’s more, it comes with 12 campaign missions. I think this is the result of the dissolution of the aoe3 team, which must have boosted the game’s development. At this rate they can release 2 new dlc’s every year.
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My main concern is they are leaning more and more towards the “popular” side while sacrificing many opportunities.
Back in 1990s and 2000s they had little materials to refer to, so many of the designs that look dubious nowadays could be acceptable.
But since HD and DE, the quality and authenticity of contents had been improving. Civ visuals and bonus more relevant. Campaigns better written. So it’s not a “it’s just a game, who cares about history” scenario. At least the developers cared. I’d say the Retold Chinese is also far better researched than previous ones.
That changed since AOE4’s “variants” and the scandal called V&V. AOE4’s new civs were fine but they introduced those cheap and niche “variants” that seemed to base more on quick money, reduced work (both physical and intellectual) and popular vibes, not the consistency or the quality.
Then it peaked 3K. Massively reused stuff. Random unit and bonus designs. Not even new voicelines When there were 3 East Asian civs without campaigns (5 after they added two more), they chose to ditch the opportunity entirely and instead force a 3K campaign not fitting both the theme and the gameplay, just because it was “more popular”.
I am deeply worried about the direction the series is going.
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It was predictable though…we all knew that polytheistic mythologies existed from 3000 BC to 1500 CE (or 1800 CE if you count Native American, African, and Polynesian peoples who didn’t come into contact with Europeans that much)…since the Japanese were relatively isolated from Europeans before and during the Sengoku and Edo periods, it stands to reason that their polytheistic pantheon could be included in AoM…
Sure, AoM is more flexible with the chronology and is even the most flexible of the rest of the series…
Yes, it is understood … they could have gone for the Mauryan Indians or the Persians or the Babylonians before touching the Japanese … I don’t think they will include gunpowder units, they will be like the Japanese from AoE 3 and 4 (although probably more like those from 3 because it is the same engine and they already have the assets made) but taking out the gunpowder units like the morutaru / ozutsu), that is, samurai, shinobis, naginata riders, yumi archers (trained in the dojo), and the heroes would be the shoguns, ikko ikki, sohei and the yamabushi (trained in the castle)…Also, Arthurians and Crusaders would be strange because they are influenced by Christianity, which is monotheistic… Crusaders are ok for AoE 4 because it is historical, Arthurians, well, it depends… if they manage to get their Christian imprint, they could fit into a Celtic mythology with the theme of the Druids and Merlin and that… something like in AoEO, but adding the mythical units as well…
Of course, of course… ultimately, it would be mythological popular culture in general… we will see the usual Sengoku-Jidai Japanese, but now including its mythological units…
That’s true… they could have based it on the pre- and post-Yamato periods, since the Sengoku period is already well known:
Archaic Age: Middle to Late Jomon (3000-500 BC)
Classical Age: Yayoi Period (300 BC-250 AD)
Heroic Age: Yamato Period (250-750 AD)
Mythic Age: Heian Period (794-1192)
Wonder Age: Kamakura Period (1192-1333)
And that’s even though the Greeks originally had Byzantine architecture in the game’s beta…
Yes, originally the Atlanteans were going to be Roman, but since this was a mythological game, they said, “What if we call them Atlanteans instead?”… and it ended up like this: Atlanteans with Roman units, Inca/Mesoamerican architecture, and Syracuse light towers that disintegrated ships…
Sure, I’d say it’s more like the veterancy system in RA2 and AoE 3… your units become stronger and more veteran the more units you kill…
Yes, even during the Gunpowder Age, melee weapons continued to be used, and there were mixed armies until everything became more homogenous by the 18th century…
Yes, at least this campaign is going to be as long as The Titans campaign, which also included 12 missions… and I wouldn’t say that the AoE 3 team dissolved, but rather that it simply became the Retold team in its entirety, and they will apply the same system as the rest of the saga of 2 DLCs per year as games as a service…
Yes, exactly… they are getting quantity rather than quality…