Actually they are above 50% in all elos as well as 1650+. They are a great civ
If I thought Leitis were as good as you think i do, then I wouldn’t be suggesting a 10/15g nerf, it would be much higher than that
while that is undeniable, it still doesnt change the fact that camels arent good enough at forcing engagements to justify that cost, neither are they that cost effective the moment they have to fight “above average” knight types like the leitis, franks or teutons, and even worse when we consider byz and eth camels.
on a side note do you know how to allocate relics in the editor? im doing some tests on the leitis vs byz and ethiopian camels.
also im not fully against the leitis as it is, since the mangudai exists and i admit the lith economy is lacking
im more trying to justify improvements to the camel…
and this is also where reducing the speed of paladins (which i propose) would be further justified. allowing cavalier civs to have more utility while reducing the paladin meta and allowing heavy camels to force engagements more often especially vs teutons
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that 150 food doesn’t amount for much when you compare it to the likes of Slavs/Khmer/Teutons/Franks farming bonuses, Mayans starting villager and longer lasting resources, Chinese starting villagers and cheaper tech, etc.
doesn’t matter, the fact is that they can still contribute, and smart use will let them snowball very easily.
but the point is - that those units aren’t dead, and they could easily, with smart play, contribute far beyond that x value per unit.
camels have always been a soft counter. they win cost effectively and population efficiently. that’s their advantage over pikes, who win much more cost effectively, but take up more population to do so.
Catas do worse against archers (until they get onto the archers, then let the trample engage) and Heavy Cavalry. they do better against Counters, Trash, and Infantry.
except you’re not factoring in the cost of the castle vs the cost of the stable, or the cost of the Heavy Camel Upgrade vs the cost of the Elite Leitis upgrade.
for now, last patch they were below 50%.
if they are so great, why don’t they see tourney use?
and then make it as useless as it was before the patch. heck even at 65 gold people are going to go with Paladins over it anyway, due to it being easier to mass.
they are cost effective. they are more of a soft counter then a hard counter.
run a trigger to have monks drop them in the monestary.
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i also dont agree with this. the relic cap should be lower (possibly even as low as 2) there isnt much in the game, besides boar laming, which gives a player such a reward for doing something well.
for example, maybe the lith player is simply lucky enough to distract the opposing player and collect 4 relics, does that mean they deserve to have an “auto win” level unit?
in a TG the chances of getting 4 relics are also much higher, does that mean the lith player in that team deserves an “auto win” level unit?
on the other hand, other civs get such bonuses without having to go out and collect stuff for it. look at farimba, or teutons armor bonus.
at least the relic bonus is deniable. if the relic bonus was reduced to 2, Lithuanians would need buffs elsewhere to compensate.
so they played better and distracted the opponent and jumped on the relics. sounds like they played better.
team games are a whole different animal where gold never runs out, which means 1/3 of the Lithuanian civ bonuses are effectively useless.
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but thats where ive always desagreed, if they were a soft counter they should be good at ANYTHING else… but they arent, their dps is lower than a light cav, they die easier to archers, they even die easier to pikes than knights do, for a gold unit (especially the gold part) they literally serve very little purpose outside of countering…
in strategy games that means the unit must be cheaper or be better at what it counters or be able to counter more
but why would they need other buffs? when getting more than 2 is extremely situational and definitely still winnable? what about3?
of course they did, but does that mean they deserve an auto win unit?
which bonus? their trash? their skirms are still amazing in TGs?
thanks
also maybe to be clear, i think lith are actually too weak as it is. but can become OP due to relics (especially TGs) but its like rolling a dice. having to go out and fetch your bonuses is too RNG dependent
if anything cap the relics to 2, and buff them in some minor other way
Actually it’s one of the strongest dark age bonuses by number which snowballs during the game. It basically ensures your TC is always working even if you have a bad start
They could or they could contribute far below that value. Sadly not every engagement is perfect for one player
They have been a soft counter for other cav units, not really for Leitis despite what you say
Catas have fewer counters but also cost 50% more gold per unit
You weren’t either in what I quoted so it still stands. See below
Across elos they have been above 50% for at least the last four patches and for 1650+ they were basically at 50% two patches ago so almost 2 out of three
For this patch, there haven’t been a ton of tournaments to cite unless you want to use the Red Bull one. Their pick rate has been increasing and I think they will see increased usage
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both do 7 damage at 2 attack speed. not lower dps. they are more population efficient then any other heavy cavalry counter in the game.
and maybe they need to be adjusted elsewhere, but not against cavalry they don’t.
not always. look at cataphracts. they counter every cavalry counter in the game, and they are expensive as crap.
because you’re literally nerfing a bonus that you have to work to obtain by a factor of 2. compare that to Farimba where Malian Cavalry get a net +3 with a research. that always exists after being researched.
if they managed to play well enough to get 4 relics despite their opponent knowing that is exactly what they were going for? and it isn’t an auto win, they just got a huge advantage.
let me ask you this - if you’re playing against goths, and you let him boom to imperial age without harassing his eco at all, should he not have a huge advantage because his eco is in tact and he can now go full goth flood?
most people go for pure gold units in team games and those skirms are easily killed by opposing knights.
i mean there is a lot of crap you could consider OP when it comes to team games, it’s kind of hard to balance team games because of all the variables.
in dark age? yes. but by the time you’re in castle age, others have progressed ahead of you with ease.
true, but the fact is, they can easily contribute far more then 87 gold and it wouldn’t even take much.
funny, math proves you wrong.
either way, you were the one who wanted to talk about being cost effective. part of cost is upgrades. sorry, math sucks that way.
across all elos includes idiots who wait till late imp and smashes armies head long into each other, which naturally favors civs who have big strong units.
basically their 2 patches ago. funny how you ignore the patch before that where they were garbage. 3 out of 4 patches they have been sub 50% winrate. but yeah totally an op strong civ like you claim they are.
https://aoestats.io/civ/Lithuanians/RM_1v1/1650+
their pick rate has been increasing, but it’s still laughable compared to some other civs. but funny, you don’t seem to call for those civs to be nerfed. and even a compensated buff is still going to be a net nerf if you’re talking 10-15 gold per leitis.
so a net nerf to their overall potential. nerfing an already deniable bonus is laughable. its not like a tech, once researched never denied.
sorry i should have been more specific, i meant ligth cav line, the camel is weaker than light cav, the heavy camel is weaker than hussars. you’re still paying 60 gold for a unit that does LESS damage than a trash unit to everything except cav
sorry i dont think you understood. i said OR. the cata is REALLY good at what it does. and thats why its ok it isnt cheaper. the camel is NOT REALLY good at what it does, therefore it should be cheaper OR be better at what it does OR do better against other things, especially if we consider the sub par ones.
either way those sub par ones really need some attention especially when we start considering these type of lith match ups
that isnt the whole thing though… because they lack paladin in compensation for farimba. neither do they have a UU that ignores armour on top of that extra damage. on top of the whole RNG of actually getting the lith bonus… (aka too weak or too strong)
yeah that is very true, but i think its less down to luck than the relic thing, same for the flood not being as swingy as the relics. we know the flood is counterable by champline. but at the same time i admit its much easier to get the flood than it is to get the 4 relics
Not necessarily - it depends on how dark / feudal goes. Could’ve gotten lamed, trouble finding sheep, rushed, etc.
They could get killed by archers, pikemen, castles, etc. - that doesn’t take much either
Sadly you seem to be in the minority here but keep sailing the sinking ship!
Actually you did which is why I quoted you, with the upgrades, math still works at a break point bud. Sorry
Editing because I shouldn’t mock you - it’s not right for me to do that on second thought. They were buffed the next patch so that’s why I didn’t include it. ALso please point me to where I said they were OP. I didn’t. I said the Leitis is too cost effective and offering a buff to offset
Yawn - I do call for a variety of civs to get nerfed. Franks, Celts, etc. etc. It’s not a net nerf necessarily if it helps them get an extra relic or two
Hussars cap at 11 damage. So does heavy camel.
No, they just have a great eco, a unique tech that applies to their entire stable line, and barracks units as a whole who laugh at archers.
Obviously. But the same could happen to the Lithuanians player.
But the fact is that with good play those extra units can enable you to snowball really easily. That means thry shouldn’t he written off as dead or lost resources.
Really? How am I in the minority? We’ve got 3 people debating and one just thinks camels should be hetter overall. Doesn’t make him right. And food for thought people have been screaming to nerf the leitis for the past 3 patches. Zero nerfs yet.
That break point is around 60 leitis. Good luck with that.
That byff doesn’t offset the nerf though does it?
It would require more then 1. Youre talking about a 20 to 30% increase in gold cost. Thats 20 to 30% less leitis.
hussar has better ROF, aka higher dps
we’re talking about their cavalry damage potential, otherwise i could say, celts have amazing siege with high ROF and more hp. malians have farimba yes, but they lack both paladin and dont have a UU that ignores armour (to balance out that extra damage from farimba)
Much less likely to with the +150 food. Basically two free scouts or they can do a much better drush than most
They aren’t being written off. They’re only being partially written off. Somehow this logic doesn’t make sense to you and I don’t know why lol
Well I assume most of the people who like the video (5.3k vs. 28 likes to dislikes) feel similarly
If it doesn’t then they can get an additional buff or bring the gold cost down a bit again
Not necessarily, you’re not taking into account that all Leitis or Paladins get a +1 attack that they are not getting which reduces how many Leitis / Paladins they need to be equivalent before the changes. Also the extra relic generates additional gold which offsets this
Yet again your analysis is too simplistic
And my point is that different civs are different. Yeah. Lithuanians can get up to +4 dmg. It’s also deniable and can be taken away. Other bonuses cannot
lol ok ill stop now before we start arguing, you’re changing what your’re saying and ignoring what im saying.
a paladin with +4 damage is not a cavalier with +3. its not even REMOTELY close. and you were the one that brought up the cavalier with +3
No, the 150 just helps ease being lamed. Fact is though other civs have bonuses that are much more long term effective.
240 gold worth of units is being condensed to less then 90 gold and no follow up impact is being shown at all. Written off.
And if you ask around youll find many of the high skill players find that sotl is a master of the hypothetical that has no real game application.
So they have to suffer mediocrity until thry get fixed again.
Except you don’t go for paladins and leitis. You go for one or the other.
Coming from tye guy who supports a video that doesnt show follow up contributions of units left after a fight.
And my point is good luck getting 4 relics. If youre argument is team games, there’s a whole crap load of junk going on their that doesn’t get nerfed
Something to think about - if spirit of the law is so right, how come we never see him casting games, interacting with casters, or interacting with pros?
Nope wrong they can do amongst the quickest drushes in the game. Hera and Viper have a few videos there. They could be more effective but it depends on how the +150 food is used
Nope the 90 gold represents the follow-up impact. Again not sure how you don’t get that
Lol ok bud - this isn’t a soap opera
I said OR lol, see below - pls read properly
So why do pro players appear on his videos? Hera, TaToH, etc. Linking a few below since you missed them but there are a ton. First one is the Lithuanian fast drush lol
Here’s T90 for an example of interaction with caster. I’ll stop now but this has been entertaining
