I expect some degree of historical accuracy, the castle designs of some recent civs I knew the architecture beforehand (Bohemians Burgundians* Romans…) was close from what I expected. And from the new castles revealed it’s quite easy to pinpoint which civ will get what, the Byzantine castle is taken straight from the Theodosian Walls for example.
(* I considered the entirety of Charles the Bold’s realm instead of just Burgundy proper, so having a flemish architecture was no surprise)
So I think it’s safe to assume the Goths won’t be getting Cinderella’s castle
Yeah those would look kinda out of place.
They could edit it though. I don’t think to many people would be angry of if any of the visuals of any content added after AoC would be changed.
Because it looks like a Moroccan castle.
But it will likely end up being the Malian one.
I just listed what I would do to see how close their decision will be to mine.
Yeah, and It wouldn’t really change that much, just changing those banners by the more Middle Eastern color features wouldn’t be a big deal and I would nicely fit the other ME set buildings.
And they could still leave the current African castle in the scenario editor. I honestly find it a bigger loss the removal of the Central Asian castle from the DE trailers.
The roof and gables do have a distinct visual of a tenshu to it, but that’s about it. It is rare to see a tenshu with such a large and obvious balcony, let alone two floors, but similar balconies are more common in buildings on the East Asian continent, such as gatehouses in China, Korea and Vietnam. Besides, I’ve never seen that kind of Y-shaped wooden staircase in Japanese castle architecture, and it seems completely unreasonable as a part of defensive building. In my personal experience, I probably have never even seen such a design that two staircases meet at the top in traditional Japanese architecture (but I have seen them in Chinese one, like the stairs at the entrance of the Summer Palace). Perhaps the staircase is meant to reflect the wooden bridges over moats common in Japanese castle architecture, but it is still difficult to understand that it leads to the balcon with doorless entrance to the interior of the building rather than a gate.
If the new Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, and Mongol castles can bring them 95% accuracy, the current East Asian castles may only be 60% accurate for the Japanese, which is still higher than for the other civs, but it’s still a pity.
This seems pretty harsh to me. The steep but not vertical stone base is appropriate for a Japanese castle. Osaka castle has a similar balcony, although it’s much nearer the top.
An older pre-release version of the East Asian castle (c. mid 1998) looked like this:
You can see that it has a similar balcony and entrance, and the top section of the release version seems to be a rescaled version of the main building of this. So my guess is the Y-shaped staircase was designed as a way to preserve those stairs up to the entrance while increasing the height.
My knowledge of Japanese castle architecture is very limited, but I think the main building in this alpha castle is a honmaru, and it’s not unusual for those to have wooden walkways around at least some of the outside. Thus the release version of the castle ended up as a sort of cross between a honmaru and a tenshu.
I understand that many Japanese castles have very sloping stone bases, but in fact even the Chinese city walls are not truly vertical.
What I can’t understand is what are the row of protrusions on the walls of the stone base. Ends of joists? I’ve never seen such things on the stone bases of real Japanese castles. Those seem rare even for Chinese city walls. I found there are similar things in the picture of the southern gate of Zhengding city wall, but they are not that dense.
I won’t say they are similar just because they all have balcony.
The topmost floor of a tenshu is used to be a small observation structure. There is basically the highest place in a city, so guards can looks out the surrounding area from this. And there is usually the only place that possibly have a small balcony as an element of the observation structure.
But still, many castles have their tenshu with no balcony, like the most famous Himeji Castle, Kumamoto Castle, Matsumoto Castle, Okayama Castle and Nagoya Castle. A balcony is even not necessary, let alone for two floors.
The bottom and middle floors of the tenshu having balconies is obviously a big big mistake and probably why I harshly think the in-game East Asian Castle looks most out of place of a Japanese castle. Those floors always have walls and gables with murder holes, arrowslits, and windows are supposed to be the most open things there.
I don’t really get what is a cross between a honmaru and a tenshu mean, since AFAIK the tenshu should be a part of honmaru. A honmaru is the core area of a castle complex, including a tenshu, houses of the lord’s family and guards, walls, and yagura towers at corners.
Anyway, having wooden walkways around the wide structure at bottom and middle floors of the tenshu means it is inaccurate from the beginning, making the castle look like a fat, doorless wooden pavilion with very open balconies and stairs that look bad for defense.
If it wants to more accurately reflect a honmaru, the Shogunate building from AoE3 could be a decent reference. It is basically a simplified honmaru to me, built on a stone base, with a tenshu and a yagura at corners, walls and a staircase leading to the entrance to the courtyard of the honmaru .
If it wants to more accurately reflect a tenshu, it should have only one balcony surround the topmost floor, have windows at the topmost floor also, and have roofs, gables, windows and slits like the current top part at the bottom and middle parts where the two balconies now surrounding. Then, have an entrance at the stone base of the tenshu that stairs inside could lead to the first floor.
I think most people can agree that we want to keep all the original AoK Castle models in the game. Yeah that could be solves making them scenario editor exclusive buildings but it would be strange to have a less authentic building available in the editor.
Also I personally don’t think it’s that bad for a Japanese castle.
It’s not perfect but I’d say it’s like 90% there.
I knew that many people in the forum don’t really have much interest in or care about Asian architectural culture, just feel like ok it’s very Asian or it’s very Japanese, can’t notice the differences between different Asian culture or notice the parts that are actually not Japanese. Well, it’s fine, just like my grandma can never tell the difference between westerners.
As long as paying a little more attention on observing the real Japanese castles🏯, you’ll realize how bad that balconies and that staircase are for a tenshu. They probably have about 40% of the castle visual so It’d never be 90% perfect. Even other East Asian buildings have some clear mistakes, such as the katsuogi and chigi, important aesthetic aspect of Shinto shrines, being widely used on buildings other than Monastery, and the ridge design that only for thatched roofs appearing on tiled roofs.
I have visited Japan myself, twice.
I have seen multiple Japanese castles in real life.
None of the AoK buildings are perfect but I think the East Asian castle is one of the better looking ones in my opinion, especially in the Definitive Edition.
East Europe castle is in the weird position in that it was built by the Teutonic Order, but it was taken over by Poland and it was modelled (in the game at least) to match the East Europe set. Imo it should be given to Teutons if it is to be kept, but I’ve seen at least one person say it should go to Lithuanians with a very flimsy justification.
That one is based on an Italian castle.
I’m not a big fan of it personally. Too symmetric.
I see. Seems like you are a person that is satisfied with the Japanese flavor from the gables and roof at the top part of the castle. You might had been in Japan and seen the real buildings some times, but you don’t really care about those wrong designs at the other parts.
There’s nothing wrong with having your own taste, but I won’t change my points about this issue. The current East Asian castle might have a good looking, but that doesn’t mean it’s accurate enough as a Japanese castle, not 90% at best. The devs during the AoK period were unable to make more accurate designs for various reasons, but we now have the opportunity to change. I’m familiar with East Asian architecture than European one, so I didn’t join the discussion above about Frank and Teuton castles, but if I learn that the current West European castle and Central European castle have something pretty wrong, I will welcome a new castle visual for them too.
@UpmostRook9474, I’m not saying it’s perfect – just to me it doesn’t seem as bad as you’re making out. It is interesting to hear your perspective, though.
Sorry, this was me getting the terminology wrong – I think I was getting mixed up with honden (which I realise is part of a shrine, not a castle). As I said, my knowledge of Japanese architecture is limited.
It seems like the word I wanted was probably goten, but it doesn’t really matter – my point was that the main building in the alpha castle, inside the walls, is not a tenshu, but it seems to have been used a the basis for the release version of the castle, which (presumably) is intended to be a tenshu.
This comes off a bit like “anyone who disagrees with me is an ignorant westerner”, but I think there must be an element of truth in this. Similarly, I’m guessing you would think the Britons’ wonder is perfectly appropriate? Whereas to me it looks like a real mess, with lots of features that are inaccurate or make no sense.
As I said I don’t know enough about European architecture to discuss them in the same way as I discuss Japanese castles. I do haven’t felt or noticed anything wrong with the Briton wonder, nor have I thought it perfect. I heard that it’s based on Chichester Cathedral, but I’ve only seen a few pictures of it on the Internet. I’ve never been to UK, or even to Europe. If someone who knows more points out a few of its obvious inaccuracies, I will respect that understanding and welcome any opportunity to correct it. It’s not the first time the wonder has been changed, anyway.
I didn’t mean to be disrespectful. I am definitely an ignorant person than others on other topics, and there are definitely more professional people on this topic who make me ignorant in comparison. It’s not a problem. It’s just that people’s preference on its current visual doesn’t convince me that the inaccuracies are actually accurate or acceptable. Just not the same matter to me.
On the other hand, I have indeed met people who cannot distinguish the differences between Asian culture or don’t have much interest in Asian culture, including some Asians themselves.
I knew, that’s way I stated “it’s not the first time the wonder has been changed, anyway.”
I meant I haven’t felt or noticed anything wrong with this Chichester Cathedral-based Briton wonder, nor have I thought it perfect.
AoE2 buildings are always squished. They always have wrong proportions so they can fit into the building grid.
The second issue that many castles look more generic because they were supposed to be shared with multiple civilisations.
Now they are forced to either give a few civilisations none perfect castles or removing something from the game that has been part of it for over 25 years.
