Please revise the new unit models for the new DLC

[ahioz9426]

The model of the Iron Pagoda needs to be modified or replaced for the following reasons:

1. The current model is reused from the Mongol Keshik. Historically, the real Iron Pagoda bore no resemblance to this design. The helmet and mask of the Mongol Keshik are overly Central Asian or even Eastern European in style, yet such cultural elements were never used by the Jin Dynasty.

2. There are already two in-game units using the Keshik model: the Mongol Keshik and the Byzantine Keshik mercenaries. A third identical-looking unit should not be added.

3.After all, the Iron Pagoda can be regarded as the most iconic heavyweight unit of the Jin Dynasty. The model of this unit truly deserves proper attention. Since it only requires texture changes based on existing models, why not choose one that better matches its historical appearance and ensures unit distinctiveness? After all, if the current plan is adopted, there will be three units with the Keshik appearance in the game.

Solution: Modify or replace it using the model of the Golden Horde Torguud. Historically, the Torguud model matches the actual appearance of the Iron Pagoda, making this absolutely the best solution.

[ahioz9426]

The weapons of the Jin Dynasty Man-at-Arms need to be changed, as they incorrectly use European swords and generic European-style shields:

The shield can be replaced with the Chinese-style shield model used by the Chinese Lance. As for the weapon, there are multiple options: the melee weapon of the Mongol Man-at-Arms, the melee weapon of the Chinese Lance, the melee weapon of the Zhu Xi Imperial Guard, and so on.

[ahioz9426]

It has the same problem as the Mongol Keshik:The model of the “Long Sword Infantry” unit is overly Central Asian and Mongolian in style. Please replace it with a more Chinese-style infantry model.

To be more specific: historically, the “long sword”, an anti-cavalry weapon, has always been used by armies of Han dynasties in the Central Plains, while northern nomadic peoples never used it. Therefore, please assign this unit, along with the ballista, to the Chinese and Zhu Xi factions.

Perhaps modify the model based on the existing Chinese Spearman or Rider?

Just as no historical strategy game would give Welsh Longbowmen to France or Landsknechts to the Ottoman Empire. This not only involves cultural appropriation but, more importantly, these factions were historically hostile. There is also no historical evidence that they absorbed and adopted their enemies’ military technologies.

I understand that a new civilization in a DLC requires a lot of new content, technologies, and units to be added. However, this does not mean that unique units of the Song and Ming dynasties can be assigned to the Jin Dynasty. This is a serious error of basic historical common sense. The development team must make a careful decision.

The long sword and the ballista belong to the Song Dynasty, and the three-eyed musket is from the Ming Dynasty. The Jin Dynasty has its own characteristics, so there is no need to assign all kinds of technologies to it.

And as for the Nest of Bees—let alone the historical anachronism (it’s a gunpowder weapon that only appeared in the Ming Dynasty), more importantly, wasn’t this unit originally exclusive to the Chinese? How come the Mongols, Byzantines, and Jin Dynasty can all build them now, completely disregarding historical timeline?

[Mórannon]

I HATE Byzantines being able to use heavy gunpowder from other civs. They Need a rework on both Imperial Landmarks, it makes absolutely no sense for them to get access yo nest of bees.

[Croissantini]

I made the same suggestion of using Torguud’s more realistic textured lamellar armour instead of the Keshik’s terrible, flat, almost scale armour looking style. The only thing that they did right was featuring tiger pelts, the weapon as well as extending the horse barding past their knees for a more covered look.

I agree with the sentiment that the Torguud has a closer appearance to the real Iron Pagoda as well, which is odd since these two civilizations were either most likely produced at the same time or very close to each other. It’s such a big miss, and I honestly would rather them swap their designs minus the weaponry. Golden Horde is more associated with the Mongols anyway, so them having a visual variant of the Keshik aligns more.

Though if they did give the Jin Iron Pagoda Torguud’s model, I would want them to add the tiger pelt and extend the barding beyond their knees much like they’ve done with the official Iron Pagoda to make it feel less flimsy.

Also something is just very wrong with the texture. It is as though the “Normals” are flipped on their chest, neck area as well as portions of the horse barding. Meaning that parts that ought to be lit up by the light will be in shadow and vice versa. I’ve always hated this texture because look at the size of these scales. They don’t reflect the kind of lamellar they would have been using in this period, and just look awful.

[SamuelWallace17]

True, the Torguud model is more historically accurate, and since the Iron Pagoda holds their weapon with both hands, swapping in the Torguud model wouldn’t hurt the visual clarity.

It’s a solid, low-effort fix.

[GoldenArmorX]

@Mórannon

I HATE Byzantines being able to use heavy gunpowder from other civs. They Need a rework on both Imperial Landmarks, it makes absolutely no sense for them to get access yo nest of bees.

I agree.

In fact, as far as I understand, it was a last-minute decision, because the landmark was originally going to be called “House of West Mercenaries,” hence the Delhi Sultanate and Chinese elements.

What I understand is that they wanted to force a Mercenary civilization using the existing ones, and they used the Byzantines. The problem is that while the Byzantines did use mercenaries, they didn’t use the ones the game advertises:

• They didn’t use Streltsy (1540), Landsknecht (1478), Grenadiers (Chinese), or Mali units (Jav Thrower).

• There’s also little chance they would have used elephants from the Delhi Sultanate, if they were enemies.

• And for the siege landmark, they simply gave it the entire unique siege ability of several civilizations, regardless of whether it actually used them or not, which is obviously a terrible idea.

Now that there’s the possibility of Civs outside the Early Middle Ages - Early Modern Age (800-1600) range, like the Templars or the Jin, they could consider giving the Byzantines more realistic historical mercenaries, or at least assigning another use to that landmark, which is seriously annoying and ruins the game’s immersion.

[GoldenArmorX]

@ahioz9426

To be more specific: historically, the “long sword”, an anti-cavalry weapon, has always been used by armies of Han dynasties in the Central Plains, while northern nomadic peoples never used it.

I believe the Zhanma Swordsmen, from the Imperial Age (IV), represent the final Jin period:

• Option A).- When they conquered the Northern Song.- and recruited many of their troops to fill the infantry gap. The same would apply to the Men-at-arm with heavy shields, also taken from the Northern Song dynasty.

• Option B).- It could also represent the period of the Mongol invasion: They lost so many horses and northern lands that they were left with only a defensive struggle using conscripted troops and Han infantry. I think that’s the main interpretation.

In that sense, it’s not cultural appropriation, just a representation of how the Jin Army evolved.

In any case, if this is true, “China Unicom should also have Zhanma Swordsmen”, which I will explain in more detail below:

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New Units for China

Since the Zhanma Swordsman is theoretically a Song Dynasty unit recruited by the Jin, China Unicom should also have them. Maybe at Imperial Age IV for balance.

In fact, China as a civilization should acquire 2 or 3 unique units in this DLC if they’re going to dedicate a campaign to them and they won’t receive a variant.

The same goes for the Bed Crossbow. According to the trailer, a Chinese army with palace guards and some Jin cavalry units in the center has Bed Crossbows instead of Springalds. Let’s hope this is the case and not a mistake in the trailer.

Regional units?

On the other hand, and in theory, the Chinese will share the “Nest of Bees” with Jin as well, so I suppose it will cease to be a unique unit and could actually become the first “Regional” unit.

Another regional unit might be the “Traction Trebuchet”. It seems the Jin will have it, which makes sense, since they never developed the Counterweight Trebuchet. The Mongols, in fact, acquired Traction Trebuchets from the Jin, so it would be strange if they didn’t. Let’s hope they also give them to the Japanese, who, in theory, never acquired Counterweight Trebuchets either.

[GoldenArmorX]

On the other hand, in the Chinese Age of Empires 4 forums on Tieba Baidu, a thread has been created where they are also analyzing the possible unique units, their models, and what we can expect.

https://tieba.baidu.com/p/10609559033?fr=frs

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Here is the link to the forum (Tieba Baidu). You can translate it with Google Chrome’s automatic translator (The wonder of technology).

https://tieba.baidu.com/f?kw=帝国时代&ie=utf-8&cid=0&pn=400&svcp_stk=1_cKSePmhtVLdXa2vbvCqbZnWRWZ6n7xMc1sBnwHlAZc-0iA6lIaRhKDuEeTr8PHbdUO836zql5LoWoq0N21ToQesWT09c9Mk2dQgn6UTnGKhw0a4A-T5LfQ11pm-1V81wxjIRwKatEQYskh5KU6rfbfFhdDhNV_ggD4pjfDWzOQn59F5DN6fsFLEccI16zMg4#/

[ahioz9426]

Haha my friend, I’m the one who posted this thread. Are you Chinese?

[ahioz9426]

Actually, AOE4 has completely done the opposite on Trebuchet. All major civilizations in East Asia, including China (Han and northern ethnic minority regimes), Japan, Goryeo and other mainstream civilizations, only used Traction Trebuchet. In reality, on the contrary, only the Mongols obtained and used the technology of Counterweight Trebuchet through the Central Asian Yisimayin, which is the Huihui Pao in the game, and it is actually the same thing as the universal Counterweight Trebuchet of civilizations.

And I think we can swap the Chinese Fire Lancers and Grenadiers for the Jin Dynasty’s Long Dao Soldiers and Bed Crossbows.

[SamuelWallace17]

@GoldenArmorX

a Chinese army with palace guards and some Jin cavalry units in the center has Bed Crossbows instead of Springalds.

Chinese’s Iron Pagoda? That actually makes it more likely that this artwork is just specific to the campaign. There’s no way Chinese gets it in the Feudal Age. Combining IO and Knight would be a balancing nightmare.

Right now, the best fix I can think of is adding the Zhanma Swordsman to Chinese’s tech tree, while making buffed units like the Iron Pagoda and Bed Crossbow the new Dynasty units. As for the old Dynasty units, we could just add them to the regular tech tree. After all, the Grenadier isn’t exactly overpowered.

[ahioz9426]

I think we can swap the Chinese Fire Lancers and Grenadiers for the Jin Dynasty’s Long Dao Soldiers and Bed Crossbows.

[SamuelWallace17]

The Fire Lancer could definitely use a rework, and we could just make the Grenadier a ZXL exclusive. I haven’t seen a Chinese train Grenadiers in months. Honestly, Chinese’s current Dynasty units really lack any unique identity, even if you deleted them, it wouldn’t make much of a difference to the game.

[SamuelWallace17]

@ahioz9426

Are you Chinese?

Even though his translation is in Spanish, his knows so many civilizations surpasses what many people know about their own heritage. I honestly think the Devs could hire him as a historical consultant, at least that would give their sluggish production speed a much-needed kick in the pants.

@GoldenArmorX

Here is the link to the forum (Tieba Baidu). You can translate it with Google Chrome’s automatic translator (The wonder of technology).

https://tieba.baidu.com/f?kw=帝国时代&ie=utf-8&cid=0&pn=400&svcp_stk=1_cKSePmhtVLdXa2vbvCqbZnWRWZ6n7xMc1sBnwHlAZc-0iA6lIaRhKDuEeTr8PHbdUO836zql5LoWoq0N21ToQesWT09c9Mk2dQgn6UTnGKhw0a4A-T5LfQ11pm-1V81wxjIRwKatEQYskh5KU6rfbfFhdDhNV_ggD4pjfDWzOQn59F5DN6fsFLEccI16zMg4#/

You’ve definitely found the biggest public forum for Age of Empires discussions on the Chinese internet.

Due to language barriers, a huge number of Chinese players can only discuss the game here and can’t get their feedback across to this forum.

If only the Devs were as attentive as you are.

[ahioz9426]

You are right. The Chinese forum Baidu Tieba can be called the largest forum in the entire history of Age of Empires in terms of both user numbers and activity. I think that it is actually very easy to make money from Chinese AOE players: all you need to do is respect and restore China in history. But now this new DLC has caused considerable negative controversy in Chinese forums. For example, the Jin Dynasty used technologies that should have belonged to China/Zhu Xi; the Yue Fei-themed DLC only has enemy factions (players call for at least reworking China/Zhu Xi); the DLC only has one variant civilization (even though the official claimed it to be an independent civilization of the main game); the DLC has less content but the same price, and other negative controversies are continuing to ferment…

[SamuelWallace17]

@ahioz9426

But now this new DLC has caused considerable negative controversy in Chinese forums

In fact, the backlash against this DLC has been pretty intense on the Chinese Tieba.

Unfortunately, most of that sentiment doesn’t seem to make its way over to the English forums.

[smiki5five]

@SamuelWallace17

Honestly, Chinese’s current Dynasty units really lack any unique identity, even if you deleted them, it wouldn’t make much of a difference to the game.

I like @ahioz9426 's idea about removing the dynasty system and renaming the current Chinese and Zhu Xi’s legacy after dynasties (Ming and Song iirc? Tang and Song?)

[MatM1996]

Sure, but it will a bit weird changing it now…but it will be work if they put more Ming units to the actual Chinese so then, can change it more easyly…