Poles late game

And how does this make them hold up against fully upgraded Paladins?

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They shred franks paladins in cost efficient test. I already told you this 2 (!) times.
Using the https://aoe-combatsim.com/ simulator half of the poles cavaliers survive against franks paladins.

But looks like you are just resistant to reason.

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Can you instead make that test in a 200 population game where you have an army of 100-120 that ideally doesn’t consist of Heavy Cavalry alone?

You posted a dead link.

now it gets absurd actually. Most games end way before a 200 pop game. 200 pop game standoffs are extremely rare currently.

I had a misspelling in it, now it should work.

That’s the thing. The Poles UT is more or less a knight-deterrent. Knowing that it exists most people/civs simply just won’t go knights because they can’t match it. The few civs that absolutely must go cavalry have enough bonuses/utilities to make up for the difference.

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That’s funny, I can’t even find Poles in that simulator.

Why do I have to repeat me all the time?
Goths cavaliers have the same stats as poles.

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I did an interesting test. 45 Berber Cavalier still loses to 30 Malay Elephants. And the Poles discount wouldn’t still be able to make up for the difference in total resource cost.

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And how is such a test representative in any way? It doesn’t take into account Szlachta Privileges or the many economic bonusses the Franks get.

I ran it in equal numbers and obviously the Franks turned out superior.

Paladin is Paladin for a reason, once you mass like 40+, should you get to that in 1v1, it’s unstoppable, few things can beat it pop-efficiently, you almost always have to relinquish 1-2 Castles as the Paladin player loses 20-30 Paladins to your Halb spam in return, I cannot believe there are people who don’t know this and think the game is a boring trade of equal infinite resources on each side and spawn points placed at your convenience with no creation time.

Btw I quoted you but I’m not referring to you with my post, it’s a general consideration that occurred since you were explaining why Frankish Paladin is good, apparently some people think that Poles Cavalier is good vs Paladin only because it wins a resource race of like 80 Cavalier vs 50 Paladin or whatever the “equal resource trade” is.

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If I do the math 30 Malay Elephant vs 45 Cavalier, with the Poles discount applied, 45 Cavalier costs 4830 res, and 30 Malay Elephants cost 3420

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I did an interesting test too: I gave the Franks 20 Paladins and the Goths 26 Cavaliers. Frankish Paladins would still defeat them 100% of the time with 7.4 surviving units on average.

This really shows what a difference missing both Paladins and Plate Barding Armor makes, especially when population efficiency matters and unit production speed is limited.

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Sorry but that’s not a fair comparison. Besides why should poles take that engagement? In open maps eles plays are dead because of the lack of that mobility.

It must be at least 30 polish cavaliers, even if you don’t account for the folwark bonus.

Sorry but your tests are biased. You try to trick there. Use comparable units and equal ressources.
This you made there is intentionally spreading desinformation.

The point is that this Poles discount is not as strong as you think it is. Besides, if you don’t engage with the elephant, then bye-bye base and eco.

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And you are ignoring the Franks’ free farming upgrades and lumberjack bonus. Not to mention the accessibility and production speed of Stables that’s not to be disregarded.
Let me guess, you didn’t consider the additional wood cost either that the Poles would spend making many more stables and houses?

Such tests are useless in practice for the most part.

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Ele pushes are very slow. You can just relocate your eco in an open map. The eles are too slow to follow your vills. You just go away with your cavaliers and raid the opponent. He can’t just run away.
And if he then tries to destroy your buildings you can trap him and kill his eles with pikes.

Basics.

What are you talking about?

Are we still talking about lategame? 11

It’s not that big of a deal actually. You can spam stables in the lategame like crazy. It was a bit different when that was an castle age tech because of the faster upgrade.

Production Buildings usually make about 5-10% of the effective unit costs for common units. UUs can be different.

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If you’re running away your whole eco, that’s… pretty much enough to snowball the game (unless a major mistake is made by the player). It will take a while to mass enough pikes to actually take down 30 eles, while your cavalier overall will be slower and weaker to destroy and damage the opponent eco. So not engaging will lose you the game.

I meant their 15% faster Foragers which is a great food bonus.

We are, I don’t know about you. If you want to take early benefits of the Folwark into account which becomes more and more replaced by Town Centers as the game progresses then you must not ignore free, instant Farming Upgrades either.

that’s how you play it. And yes, it works pretty well against eles. It’s totally worth it.

I’m not convinced. Running away whole eco is generally sign of desperation. The dominant player should win, unless he makes a major mistake.

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