Who said whole eco? Just like the 5-15 wills under threat.
30 elephants is gonna threaten a lot more than 5-15 vills…
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“just relocate” is a 60 wood sunk cost for each farm you make in the BEST case scenario assuming:
- you don’t lose TCs and you are not forced to rebuild them
- you don’t have to make mills
- you lose 0 vills (which is unrealistic in most games)
- you are not forced off of key resources such as your opponent controlling all 3 of your golds all of a sudden which makes it impossible to do some techs/units.
what elo are you? Elephant pushes can be worth it sometimes, it’s definitely not a bad unit, in some cases such as Malay, Elephant flood is even meta to a degree.
15 vills in early Castle age is 33% of your economy most likely. If you lose your TC to an early Castle Elephant push, it’s game over in most cases in high elo games because the 375 resources you need to make a new TC are too much to keep the game even at that point.
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We were talking about 30 imp malay elephants vs polish cavalier. Not early castle.
You can’t just switch around whatever you like. The game is very complicated and ofc there are different scenarios depending on timings.
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in late Imp, losing vills + being forced off your farms is a losing game anyway because you don’t have the wood to afford both constant trash unit production (skirm/pike or similar) AND reseed like 30 farms which you get pushed off of by the Malay player. 30 farms is 1800w, even by late Imp standards that’s A LOT and in most close games you don’t float more than 500 resources at any point.
It is true that Elephants have weaknesses but they can be strong also. I don’t think they are a bad unit at all and now most civs except perhaps Vietnamese have a good reason to mix in Elephants in their Imperial comps.
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Ok malay eles are a bit different to others I admit.
Because others you usually will make monks against, which isn’t that strong against malay eles.
Edit: Thats’s also why I don’t reall like the last malay changes, btw. But ok, now it’s part of the game.
But
Is also not the situation we talked about. And a key part of the game is to expand your eco in the midgame so a single raid doesn’t puts your whole game in danger. That’s why relocating the part of the eco that is in danger by the eles usually works fine in open maps cause you don’t have to relocate your whole eco, just a small part of it.
In closed maps it’s different cause there it’s often your whole eco that is in danger.
I mean I have one thing to admit.
I think because of that type of bonusses poles get (and also because of the lack of the last cav armor) they might be a comparable weak teamgame pocket civ. But it depends if we see the first poles buildorders for teamgame pocket, because if there are builds that feature szlachta privileges with an insane timing it could also be the opposite.
But it could be that they suck as TG pocket and you only can play them as flank, which isn’t optimal for a cavalry civ.
Poles were seen first time at EW
But wiped out by Camel Archer spam
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As I said somewhere else. This doesn’t make sense, Poles should be quite strong against cav archers, as they historically proven to be good against them.
I nmy thread: How I would "fix" poles - 3 little changes
I proposed to change Lechitic Legacy to give the winged hussar extra HP and bonus damage against cav archers istead of the trample damage. With these Changes Poles could hold their own in the very lategam but their midgame would be a bit tuned down.
Poles aren’t suited for EW tbh - they can’t really abuse their insane eco their and szlachta privileges is too expensive to go for early, as EW is so highly paced.
But the game between villese and vinchester showcased the lategame weakness of poles against FU archery. I think the devs should try to fix this, this kind of all-in mid game military spam ftw or lose is just a bit too much. Ofc the game thrives from weak and strong phases of certain civs, but in case of Poles it’s a bit too much forced into that direction imo.
And thats sad, cause overall I like their design, they are such a versatile civ.
IMO, they are fine
No a civ to go in EW
We will see in RM tournaments how good they perform
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historical accuracy changes bruh
Also 0 siege rams were made this game, this would have helped greatly against the camel archers.
Berbers have 1 of the strongest late games, Even Franks, who have a relatively strong (but not best) late game, lose to late game Berbers. Berbers beating Poles in late Imp doesn’t say anything about Poles, it merely shows that Berbers are a late game powerhouse.
There are a lot of good civs vs which Poles have a fair chance in Imp, for example even Huns with no Heavy Camel and 1 less damage on CA compared to Camel Archer are more manageable to kill with Winged Hussar spam.
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Right, you just chase and roll them over. 
Except Rams are great at soaking up arrow fire. It’s why they are highly recommended against a civ like britons as well
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If you have the Bohemian howitzer, then the Rams look rather old, although they are still good.
Yes, but guess what: Camel Archers are more mobile than foot archers.
Maybe but it’s about the fact that rams rrwuire the archer player to micro more or the archers waste shots on the rams and not units.
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I think Poles are extremely strong in super late game. Obuch skirms +some Sieg rams, can cost efficiently beat about anything. The
Thread before Was somehow struck on discussing the cheaper cavaliers, which can cost efficiently beat franksh paladins too, but isn’t Poles real super late game strength.
The last thing Poles need is the last cav armor. Might as well play full tech
I think the nerf they needed is Obuch. Perhaps reduce its attack massively. That way it reinforces their support role and champion will see as a situational alternative. With reduced attack it will still do its job. But if you increase the cost/training time /squishiness, it might take away their forte (hence appeal) a bit too much. I think they should be hardy enough to tear armor longer.
I’d like to see their cavalry a bit more appealing, especially in imperial age. But I can’t think of how.
In general, I don’t think Poles is as OP as it is unbalanced: too strong in castle, too meh in imperial or closed maps.
Wtf is going on here with the obuch nerfing talk?
It’s literally the only fully upgraded and strong unit of their roster.
Nerf everything, because why not?
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