When i played on beta i already knew this units would be broken, then devs decide to release the game with no nerfs to DLC civs, besides the overpowered economy that Poles, and the Danes, have there is a big problem, Poles can literally counter most of civilizations armies with just 2 units, worse then the infamous skirmgoon ball, so i get bafle when people say winged hussar isnt good enough, who needs winged hussar?
What happen to civilization being lackluster on some aspect or having weakness?
Because poles lack an heavy ranged infantry, devs decide to give their skimisher not only the role of countering heavy infantry and light cavalry but also light infantry, why, also why they get to have 22 range? Correct me if im wrong but isn´t this unit the only one that does this? Usualy an unit is either light infantry who counter light cav and heavy infantry or infantry that counter light infantry and heavy infantry not the 3 at same time
And then we have the Retainer that who is an heavy melee cavalry that counters ALL cavalry, i guess chinaco needed a competion, not to mention with cards like chinaco they become lancer cavalry so they outrange your hussars, they can 2nd row attack, and they also counter their counters the light cavalry for some reason? And they have the add bonus of having multiplier vs artilery because why not?
Before people claim i read it wrong here is the tooltip if an units counters ONLY Heavy Cavalry vs ALL Cavalry
For one the Kurpie Marksmen’s anti-skirm properties aren’t as great as it appears, it doesn’t upgrade like Schiovoni and most skirmisher units have pretty good range resist.
Retainer/Vanguard aren’t actually well liked by players (they have their purposes though), and you’re neglecting their particular quirk;
They do not have range resist like most cavalry but actually melee resist so in those mass musketeer wars (common in treaty games)…they get shot to pieces.
Also it’s not mentioned but one of the better counters to true heavy cavalry like lancers and Mahouts and Curassiers isn’t to shoot them with dragoons but melee them with your own cavalry, winged Hussars are pretty crappy in that regard compared to normal hussars as they are not cost effective. That’s why retainers are like that.
That’s by design…I saw as much of footage of streamers in beta as I could (I missed the beta) pretty much all of them pretended the retainer didn’t exist. quite a few lost games they didn’t need to.
Kurpie Marksmen has the same range resist as all other skimisher while doing more damage to them then they receive if you compare to for example British rangers they have:
More HP - 214 vs 264
Althought british rangers have more range resist and more damage they still outdamage them 35 vs 30 when fighting each other.
They have the same range even thought they are filling 3 roles anti-skimisher anti-light cavalry and anti-heavy infantry, i dont know why everyone and their mothers news skimisher have to have 22 range wich use to be niche because most other skimisher have 20 range
You can say they are weaker at their role as counter heavy infantry compare to other skimishers but isnt by a large margin because they still have high damage
Retainers are broken no heavy cavalry should have multiplier vs dragoons especially if they are lancer units and since dragoons also dont have melee resist it means they get full damage, also retainers can get range resist since u get acess to house of jagellion wich give you 10% range resist but like chinaco you get to be they overperform in their role.
My point is both this units combined are hard to deal with, im not even adding artilery to the mix since wich ever unit u do they will get coutered easy, make mass skirm goon? just spam kuiper try to make heavy cavalry to kill kuiper? make retainer easily dispatch heavy cavalry, make musk heavy cavalry? get counterd easily by kuiper retainer same thing for heavy cavalry skimisher.
el retainer es una unidad que tiene armadura cuerpo a cuerpo, se rompen facil! de verdad lo consideran roto? es por esto que nunca me gusto el modo de juego de tratado
I’m saying it’s not as big a deal with Kurpie Marksmen as you think, sure them having 22 range in the late game seems a bit wrong but I’m not as concerned about their damage sure it makes them better against other skirms but counter them? I hardly think so.
Dragoons still do often loose to hussars in close range they have 0 melee resist and hussars do have range resist, it’s not as big a deal as you think for retainers to do extra damage to them. Have your forgotten their non existing range resist for a heavy cav?
The Piechur is a good unit. But it heavily underperforms vs infantry, in exchange for solid anti-dragoon properties and some utility in that it will generally beat other skirms in the absence of other units on the field.
The Retainer? Every word you’ve written I believe to be correct.
My proposal here would (very intentionally) solve the lategame retainer problem, while pushing Poland towards the Winged Hussars. Also, by pushing them towards the Winged Hussars, it opens up the hole of needing a more dedicated cavalry counter, giving Poland a reason to use more of its unit options, be it Lipkas, Pancerni, Jans, etc.
Literally, it’s a unit that counters three other unit types and has a range of 22. Each shot deals about 58.5 raw ranged damage to skirmishers—and that’s without factoring in the ranged resistance those units typically possess. To put that into perspective, the Salteador—the 1-population skirmisher that deals the most damage—tops out at 47 with all upgrades. I think the 1.5x multiplier against lightinfantry is excessive when combined with that range. In a sense, that 1.5x bonus ould be balanced by the range, the cost, or a smaller bonus, but not by all of those factors at once. I suppose that if it stays at 1.25x vs. skirmishers, 1.75x vs. heavy infantry, and the range at 21, that would somewhat offset the cost and the HP
I don’t agree with that stance; by that same logic, Spanish lancers shouldn’t exist. I think they just need to be balanced.
In general, Mexico and Ethiopia have even more broken mechanics; for the moment—and erring on the side of caution—I don't see the Poles reaching that level of excess just yet.
The problem is also with Klebsiella: that card allows their economy to scale ridiculously using smart cowing, as they don’t suffer a micromanagement penalty like other civilizations that benefit from cowing. I think they should penalize the lack of micromanagement by reducing the gather rate to 0.25 relative to a human collector; that way, the Polish economy wouldn’t scale as much. Likewise, the Vanguard seems way too strong and spammable, perhaps applying a damage penalty against infantry like 0.7, combined with a higher resource cost, would be sufficient.
