[Poll] Should AoE4 get Native Americans?

[Huge5000RTSFan]

@EricGonzalezM

Speaking as a Central American who should feel identified by having Native American units… accuracy wouldn’t be fun or balanced. Historically, our asses got handed to us when the Spanish arrived. It’d be like playing an AoE match but you can’t move beyond Feudal and your enemy is late Imperial. In AoE II, having the slightest chance of beating any European civ as Aztecs, Mayans or Incas has always felt too disconnected from reality to me. Even if AoE doesn’t take itself seriously, there are limits, same way it’s not right to see WWII tanks in there.

I’m fine with AoE IV not having Central/South American civs because their military tech was ages behind. Perhaps they could be playable in specific campaigns only, but not skirmish. I’m not as familiarized with the North American natives so I can’t speak about that. I think AoE III did a great job with them.

People just really like the Mesoamerican Civs. That’s why they would like to have them.
And from a historical point of view, that should not be a problem.

There have been 2 historical situations where despite having a “numerical” and “technological” disadvantage, some civs still did win and win big.

1 Alexander the Great vs Persian Empire. Alexander’s army numbered fewer than 40,000 men. Greek sources estimate the effectiveness of the Persian army around 700,000 or 800,000 soldiers.
That had 20 times more manpower and access to Elephants.

2 Mongol Army was by invade China mainly just people on horses with bows.
Mongol army was like max 200,000 soldiers.
China has like 2 till 3 million soldiers with blackpowder.

Mongol invasion of China

[EricGonzalezM]

Yup, I totally agree. I mean, stick a bunch of Spanish Conquistadors in the middle of the jungle (with all their latest tech, horses and all), ambush them with poisoned arrows and they would stand no chance. However, those cases were not that common and most of my ancestors were naively coming out of the jungle to greet their “gods” only to get exterminated.

In the AoE context, where Mesoamerican civs start to feel weird is when they send trebuchets, champions, galleons, etc. to war. It doesn’t bother me in slightest way if they are included since I can just simply avoid them, but I wanted to point out that after a certain “age” in AoE, it’s purely fiction and there are better sci-fi RTS games out there if that’s what I’m after.

I would prefer a higher focus on proper European civ asymmetry (instead of reskin jobs) than devs wasting time fictionalizing Mesoamerican civs.

[Vinifrss]

Two dominant replies here: (1) no and (2) yes BUT historically accurate… literally means can’t really compete with Old World civs.

In other words, community’s answer is an absolute NO, native americans are not a priority for DLC civs.

[Spyken1]

Hell yes!!!

Native american is a priority has a dcl.

They are the best hunter and the colonist used the native american to hunt for them, for the presious fur and meat.

They are also the best gatherer, they know where to find medical plant to cure local desease. (The clasic is scorbut)

They learned to trade for what they lack, and learned to use weapons and fire arms.

A colonist had not chanche in a close combat, native american used tiny stone batle axe and trow it at the enemy, has they trow their self on the enemy, whit bone or stone knives.

That is wy the colonist used fire arms, but they where low in amunition and gun powder, if ever the native american whent all in, it would have been a blood bath for them.

The solution of the colonist was to build a wooden wall and use pikes, to keep the native american at bay and ration food.

If the wood wall fall or if the transport ship did not come, the colonist was sure to die.

At the end, the only solution for the colonist was to trade what fire arms and black powder that was left for animal fur and meat, alowing native american to be equal in fire poower, whit out ever needing to mine stone ans iron.

It is funny how live can some time self balance it self.

Edit:

If ever we had native american, they wil not be able to mine, but they will get gold/meat from hunting, stone/wood/meat from gathering tree.

Gun powder units will cost alot more of food, but no canons for native american.

Gold is not used and have no value.

[Huge5000RTSFan]

@EricGonzalezM

I would prefer a higher focus on proper European civ asymmetry (instead of reskin jobs) than devs wasting time fictionalizing Mesoamerican civs.

They don’t have to, it’s historical accurate that some Mesoamerican Civs. did ally themselves with the Spanish. So a mix of American native and Europe colonial units sounds reasonable.

Confederacy of Tlaxcala, Totonacapan, Zaachilaa, Tarascans , Tetzcoco, Otomi, Chalco, Xochimilco, Mixquic and Iztapalapa sounds like a lot of native factions you can mix with Spain.

@Spyken1

Hell yes!!!

Native american is a priority has a dcl.

I doubt it’s a good Idea to make them a early priority DLC.

To flesh them out, might require simply too much resources, while it would be easier to include more conventional factions. Exotic factions should rather show up later.

@Vinifrss

Two dominant replies here: (1) no and (2) yes BUT historically accurate… literally means can’t really compete with Old World civs.

In other words, community’s answer is an absolute NO, native americans are not a priority for DLC civs.

So which civs should be than priority, prior to America ?

[EricGonzalezM]

@Huge5000RTSFan

So which civs should be than priority, prior to America ?

There’s the answer to your question in your very own post above. Spain should be next after the initial 8 civs.

@Huge5000RTSFan

They don’t have to, it’s historical accurate that some Mesoamerican Civs. did ally themselves with the Spanish.

Let’s talk AoE language here for a second: It is still weird to play fictional versions of Mesoamerican civs that never got such things as blacksmith upgrades (chain mail, plate armor never happened), iron works, siege machinery, military “castles” (what’s depicted in previous AoE were temples), military ships… I could go on.

Melee weapons were mostly limited to wood planks with obsidian blades, like this but those used in battle were likely far less stylized:

Can you imagine soldiers in Medieval Europe carrying those things to battle - while also unarmored - and standing any chance?

Perhaps what Relic and Microsoft can do and which would amazingly expand on the asymmetry of the Spanish civ is do as you said and have “plain/base Spain” and “Spain + Mesoamerican tech” as you age up (similar to the Chinese Dynasties). I could play with them and buy into the idea that they can beat France or the English for example.

But I can also see how including Mesoamericans as second fiddle to the “main” Spanish civ might prove offensive for some.

[Huge5000RTSFan]

I think of something like this here, just transit from Mesoamerican faction into “new spain.”

[Kostej]

I hope that American civs get distinct overhaul. Just reskinned but t naked man at arms for Aztecs with same stats as European ones would look ridiculous.

[GusTank04]

@Huge5000RTSFan

I think of something like this here, just transit from Mesoamerican faction into “new spain.”

The way you put this actually sounds like it would make for very interesting civs. They could have access to techs of certain colonial nations that would keep them competitive in the lategame while still be historically accurate in the early game

@Huge5000RTSFan

So which civs should be than priority, prior to America ?

Pretty sure we all know HIS answer

@Vinifrss

yes BUT historically accurate… literally means can’t really compete with Old World civs.

No, it actually doesn’t

[Kostej]

@GusTank04

No, it actually doesn’t

How so? Unless they make them completey different with massed weak units and godlike Eco I just cant see it.

[EricGonzalezM]

I would love something like this, but we’re in 2021 and I’m sure it would hurt sensibilities. I’m Central American, descendant of both Native Americans and Spanish and I don’t care. I still would rock a “New Spain” civ.

Much better than fictionalized Aztecs, Mayans and Incas reaching Imperial Age, gunpowder and advanced siege.

[GusTank04]

@Kostej

How so? Unless they make them completey different with massed weak units and godlike Eco I just cant see it.

How Native American civs COULD be balanced and realistic

First of all, you have to make a distinction between civs that did not use Metals in their armamaents (Aztecs, Zapotecs, Mayans, Tlaxcaltecs…) and those that did (Incas, Chimu, Tarascans…). This is important because it completely changes the types of troops a culture could actually field, and what upgrades it would show in the game. The values I will present are all imaginary, as proof of concept, not to be taken literally. Stone Weapons Peoples without Metals should have Weapons and Armour …

[Amphiprion6]

From what i know, metal was never used as weapon but mostly as decoration. Something meso could do (prob incas if we need at least one because they build a true empire) is useing stone instead of gold for most of their units, and gold can be use at something very different, like a specific building which provide specific abilitys, noble units can have ability to increase stats / eco / others stuff based on what tech you chose to develop.

The logic is, gold was used as ornement, ornement was used by elite (but not as weapon), and elite rules the empire, so a lot of gold mean a lot of ornement, mean soldiers/vills have a lot of moral (something like that) ^^

[Kostej]

@Huge5000RTSFan

With spears and shields vs way advanced than Spanish equipment 152

They had guns not only spears. Plus great numerical superiority. And for one such battle there are tens or hundreads with different result.

[Huge5000RTSFan]

@GusTank04

@Huge5000RTSFan

I think of something like this here, just transit from Mesoamerican faction into “new spain.”

The way you put this actually sounds like it would make for very interesting civs. They could have access to techs of certain colonial nations that would keep them competitive in the lategame while still be historically accurate in the early game

@Huge5000RTSFan

So which civs should be than priority, prior to America ?

Pretty sure we all know HIS answer

@Vinifrss

yes BUT historically accurate… literally means can’t really compete with Old World civs.

No, it actually doesn’t

@EricGonzalezM

I would love something like this, but we’re in 2021 and I’m sure it would hurt sensibilities. I’m Central American, descendant of both Native Americans and Spanish and I don’t care. I still would rock a “New Spain” civ.

Much better than fictionalized Aztecs, Mayans and Incas reaching Imperial Age, gunpowder and advanced siege.

You guys are right, there should be a choice, that is historical accurate too.
Some did not ally themself with Spain.

Confederacy of Tlaxcala, Totonacapan, Zaachilaa, Mexicas-Aztecs, Tarascans, Tetzcoco, Otomi, Chalco, Xochimilco, Mixquic and Iztapalap were spain allies,
it’s possible to have this historical accurate and competitive playable option.

Here suggestion for Spain Allies Tech Tree

Here suggestion for Tech Tree if you decide to resist against Spain.

[GusTank04]

That looks good. There are plenty of ways to make the civs unique and viable without compromising their historical accuracy. We’re just scratching the surface of it here…

[Dustydeadly]

I don’t think the Spanish would have shared their little equipment much?

[PlantedMovie253]

Why are people saying that the Aztecs fighting Europeans is unrealistic. What is realistic about the Chinese fighting against the British?

[Kostej]

Its more that in any scenario with similar sized armies it would be pretty much no fight.

[PlantedMovie253]

Not really relevant. this game was made by the developers of Company of Heroes which is a WWII game.

During WWII the United States was outnumbered 20/1 by the Nazis and we all know who won the war and in game the numbers are 1/1 with the Nazis and it’s still balanced.