My point is people would had been happy, for the most part (can’t please everyone), regardless of having normal names or not because content wise this is a great expansion for just 15 euros and instead of talking about that, most people are talking about bad name choices.
Just doesn’t add up to me right now. Strange!
The price is surprisingly good for the announced content even for players that are multiplayer or single player only players. The art for the campaign in the trailer is really beautiful the voice over is good too it reminds me of the AoE 2 story telling style.
I agree! If it wasn’t for the name backlash for once since the launch of AoE4 I’m fairly sure the forums would be mainly positive instead of negative 
I was super hyped for the variant civs, more than the new civs (because I know the latter will come). It opens up so many possibilities.
…until they chose the least inspiring one.
Also, another point is they knew what they were doing because on one hand they give us normal civilizations like the Japanese & the Byzantines but on the other they create these made up names for new variant civs.
Make no sense as it has not the same structure like the rest of the civs. Clearly more important info is missing, and I hope it will all make sense once they release it.
Unless the real name contains spoilers for how they play, and waiting for all the rest information to be released before giving us the proper name?
He said a long time ago that he doesn’t care about history accuracy and any of this stuff.
He also said that if a new unit could shoot laser, as long is fun and balance, he wouldn’t care.
That could be just his “entertaining hat” on while being on Twitch live, also if he is under NDA what is he supposed to say? He must dodge it somehow to prevent further discussions.
He was a long time ago. Don’t remember exactly, but months ago.
And about what they could say.
Age of Noob kind of confirm that those names are final.
Also, he said he talked to developers about this.
They are even on Website’s civilization page with a “Coming soon” next to it.
They were first announced at Xbox store “features” section of the DLC.
It’s not a riddle =/
I wish it was.
Yes all things point towards the name being true but that doesn’t mean both AgeofNoob and BeastyQT is under NDA, and when AgeofNoob talked about that he can only speak about things that’s been published.
If they knew about changes that aren’t official yet, he cannot comment on it. Time will tell, let’s hope they have a reason for this and that make sense.
These civs are too absurd to be true. And each name is wrong for different reasons. It is impossible to make one claim to all civs. They all have different problems. Fantasy, person, abstract army, real order but not related to HRE. There is no single logic in these problems. They seem to have been deliberately created wrong for various reasons.
I think that these 4 civs only matter if the real names are encrypted in them. And similarly should be sought not in historical, but in names similar in letters.
French Variant → Jeanne d’Arc → Jerusalem
Abbasid Variant → The Sultans Army → Ayyubids Sultanate
Chinese Variant → Empire of Jade → Joseon
Update (better version):
Chinese Variant → Empire of Jade → Jin dynasty
HRE Variant → Order of the Dragon → Order of Templars
Update (better version):
HRE Variant → Order the Dragon → Teutonic Order
What do you think about this version?
Update:
In the Official Teaser Trailer we hear: “They cross to the east to seize the holy city of Jerusalem. We called them the Franks.”
We know exactly what’s in the company. There will be a kingdom of Jerusalem. It is based on the civ of the French. The Civ of Jerusalem is 100% already in the game! Devs already make this civ. But not in multiplayer. Instead, we have a variation of the French in the form of Jeanne? Seriously?
Hi Everyone! I have been commenting a lot on Reddit and here, and I made a pretty early post talking about some of the Civilization Variant names that were being discussed, but I have definitely done a lot more research since then for all civs, and so I feel a bit more confident making a concise suggestion for the new civ names. With that in mind, these are my suggestions, and I will put in full detail WHY I believe each suggestion is the strongest choice below.
French Variant → Duchy of Orléans instead of Jeanne d’Arc
Abbasid Variant → Sultanate of Egypt instead of The Sultans Army
Chinese Variant → Cathay instead of Empire of Jade
HRE Variant → House of Luxembourg instead of Order of the Dragon
WHY Duchy of Orléans?
The Duchy of Orléans was a Duchy level subdivision of the Kingdom of France on the same level as the Duchy of Burgundy. In Age of Empire 2, The Duchy of Burgundy was covered as a civ called the Burgundians and so there is precedence for the inclusion of a Duchy level civ in the past. Jeanne d’Arc was labeled the Maid of Orléans and this would be a very good title for the inevitable hero unit of the Duchy of Orléans. In casting this civ will likely just be referred to as Orléans for short.
Two questions then arise:
Why should we include a whole civilization for the Duchy of Orléans when it is just a constituent of the Kingdom of France? Some might even cleverly point out, that the Burgundians in AoE2 not only represented the Duchy of Burgundy, but also Burgundian State.
The two reasons for this are as follows: This is meant to be a Variant of France, not a totally different Non-French entity. That is why there will be a lot of overlap (This is a theme you will see among all of the variant names I recommend), therefore having it be a Duchy of France allows it free roam to use as many French assets and mechanics as they would like. This was also true for the Duchy of Burgundy despite it having periods of independence in AoE2, and it was still acceptable. Second is that the developers REALLY want to use Jeanne d’Arc, which limits the number of civilizational name options we have to represent her with as a hero unit.
If Jeanne d’Arc is integral to the design of this variant civilization, then why don’t we use the name The County of Armagnac where she hailed from?
Firstly, between a less significant county, and a more significant Duchy, the choice should be obvious as to which is preferred. It is true that Jeanne d’Arc is not from the Duchy of Orléans, but rather the County of Armagnac, however it would significantly limit both the scope of being a French variant, and would have little to it beyond being the birthplace of Jeanne d’Arc. Secondly, Jeanne d’Arc was titled the Maid of Orléans, and to more easily explain why she can come back if she dies, or how a Maid of Orléans could survive from the Dark age to Imperial age, it would be better to instead name the hero unit the “Maid of Orléans” so that way it could in theory, represent many people, it would also break the direct attachment to Armagnac and more firmly tie it to the Duchy of Orléans. It could of course still represent Jeanne d’Arc as much as people would like.
WHY Sultanate of Egypt?
Both the Ayyubid Sultanate as well as the Mamluk Sultanate were originally based out of Cairo, Egypt, and both laid claim to the title Sultan of Egypt (alongside frequently also holding the title Sultan of Syria/Sham). Both the Ayyubids and the Mamluks at least in name paid allegiance to the Abbasid Caliphate, making them subdivisions of the Abbasids. The Sultanate of Egypt is both specific enough to be grounded in real history, as well as broad enough to encompass both the Ayyubid and Mamluk Sultans who controlled the region. Casters will probably shorten it to just Egypt, but having Sultanate in the name will be important if they end up having some kind of Sultan character like the Devs original name seems to indicate.
So then:
Why not just call them the Ayyubids since the campaign has Saladin? Or why not call them the Mamluks since they were more long lasting and influential?
If you examine the campaign where this civilization variant is very likely to appear, the Sultan campaign missions include Tughtekin, Nur al-Din, Shirkuh, Saladin, Qutuz, Baybars, Shajar al-Durr, and Barsbay all representing various Sultans and their battles in history.
Tughtekin founded the Turkoman Burid dynasty, and was Emir of Damascus from 1104 to 1128.
Nur al-Din is most likely the Seljuk Emir of Damascus of the Zengid dynasty from 1151 to 1174.
Shirkuh was a Vizier of the Fatimid Caliphate, General of Zengids, and uncle of Saladin, in 1169.
Saladin we all know and love, founder of the Ayyubid dynasty and Sultan of Egypt/Syria from 1174 to 1193.
Qutuz was the third Mamluk Sultan and Sultan of Egypt/Syria 1259 to 1260.
Baybars was the fourth Mamluk Sultan and Sultan of Egypt/Syria from 1260 to 1277.
Shajar al-Durr was the Sultana of Egypt and first of the Bahri Mamluk dynasty in 1250.
Barsbay was the 9th Burji Mamluk Sultan of Egypt/Syria from 1422 to 1438.
Only 2 of the campaign missions are relevant to the Ayyubids, and 4 are relevant to the Mamluks. The common denominator however, is that 6 of the 8 are relevant to Egypt. You can also see a clear path of progression in how even the early missions are leading us to the events of the Egyptian based Ayyubid/Mamluk led battles. It definitely wouldn’t be totally wrong to classify this civilization as the Sultanate of Egypt to tie in the biggest common denominators. Whereas it would definitely disclude a significant amount of content to make it only represent the Ayyubids or the Mamluks.
7 of the campaign missions are related to Syria/Sham or Damascus (In Syria), the Sultan of Sham was also a title, why not call it the Sultanate of Syria/Sham?
The first two campaign missions despite being led by Damascus based leaders, were actually Emir’s not Sultans. So while cool to represent in the campaign history, they are not really relevant to the “Sultan’s army” either, because they were not Sultans. Everyone that appears after that was either relevant to Egypt or straight up a Sultan of Egypt. So actually, there is only 5 out of 8 missions that truly feature a “Sultan of Sham”. This is less than the number for Sultans of Egypt. So Egypt still remains the best choice.
WHY Cathay?
Cathay is a name that is both historically synonymous with China as whole, as well as more specifically refers to the northern region of China and its dynasties. The name Cathay comes from Khitan and could be used to refer to the Liao, Xia, Jin, and Western Liao (Qara Khitai) dynasties that were extremely prominent across northern China from the 900s to the 1200s. Another especially helpful note to make, is that the most prominent producers of Jade for ancient China was in Khotan in what is now Xinjiang province, Khotan was under the control of the Western Liao within AoE4’s time frame. This tidbit may be helpful considering the original name the devs went for was Empire of Jade.
I suspect this civilization name will need the most explanation:
Weren’t the northern dynasties of Liao and Jin, Khitan and Jurchen respectively? Doesn’t that mean they are not truly Chinese?
To start, Chinese is not really an ethnicity as much as it is a nationality. While the Liao and Jin dynasties were not predominantly Han, that does not change the fact they were Chinese dynasties. Both were extremely sinicized, could use Middle Chinese in administration, and saw themselves as Chinese.
To be even more specific, the ancestors to the Khitans, which were relatives of the Mongols, were known as the Xianbei. The Xianbei united Northern China under the Northern Wei from about 380 to 530 AD, then by their absorption into the Tang Dynasty in 600 AD there were widely regarded as sinicized, having almost all adopted Chinese names around 500 AD. The story of Mulan that many of you may know as the Chinese Disney princess is based on a person who is thought to have been Xianbei.
Great Khitan was first established in the early 900s and quickly renamed to Great Liao to accommodate the large multiethnic population as well as to further sinicize the state. After the fall of Liao to the Jurchens and Song dynasty they fled West and established Western Liao (Qara Khitai), and despite the fact few were of Han ethnicity anymore, Western Liao largely promoted Chinese culture, NOT Khitan, throughout its holdings in Central Asia. Chinese and Muslim historiographical sources, such as the Yuan written History of Liao, considered the Western Liao to be a Chinese dynasty. And the Liao dynasty is where the name Cathay originates.
For the Jin, the Jin dynasty literally referred to themselves as China, and were famous for building some of the Great Wall against the Mongols. Their descendants were the Manchu’s, and while some Han Chinese during the rise of the Manchus didn’t consider the Manchu to be Chinese, after they avenged the previously Han led Ming Dynasty, they largely won Han Chinese support for the Qing dynasty and were accepted as Chinese. (Contrary to popular belief, the Qing did not defeat the Ming, it was instead the Shun, who the Qing then defeated to avenge the Ming).
As I said earlier, Chinese is a nationality, and China is a multi-ethnic empire, therefore the Northern Dynasties could definitely still be considered Chinese, and all their descendants in China would call themselves Chinese. Even the peoples of Southern China would have at one time been referred to as Barbarians, but now the Zhuang, Miao, etc are all celebrated as Chinese ethnic diversity (Even Han has a lot of diversity).
Isn’t Cathay an old fashioned name imposed by westerners? You even said it comes from Khitan, not Chinese!
As previously established Cathay does indeed come from Khitan, but it is still used by some Chinese themselves to refer to the country of China. Some official entities across the Sinitic world that use the name include Cathay Airlines in Hong Kong and the Cathay United Bank of Taiwan. Even if the theme of this Variant China had nothing to do with the northern dynasties, it is still an accepted non-offensive way to refer to the entirety of China. Some languages (Like Russian and some Turkic languages) even still use a variant of Cathay as their primary word for China now. Also as we have pointed out above, the Khitan dynasties can still be classified as perfectly Chinese.
WHY House of Luxembourg?
The House of Luxembourg also known as the Luxembourg dynasty was a royal house within the Holy Roman Empire from the 1200s to the 1400s. The last male head of the House of Luxembourg, Sigismund of Luxembourg, became King of Hungary and Croatia, King of Germany, King of Bohemia, and eventually Holy Roman Emperor. He is well known for establishing the Order of the Dragon (Which the current dev developed variant is based off of). The house is labeled House of Luxembourg because the family owned it throughout the entirety of their rule. Casters would probably just shorten its name to Luxembourg or Lux, but it would be able to retain all the aesthetics of both the HRE as a subdivision of it, as well as of the Order of the Dragon as they founded it.
Order of the Dragon is one of the most historically established original variant names thought up by the devs, so…
Why should we use House of Luxembourg over Order of the Dragon?
The biggest reason is that the House of Luxembourg actually owned land and started much earlier in the AOE4 timeline than Order of the Dragon, they can still use all of its units and aesthetics because they own it. The Order of the Dragon never really owned much if any land, started quite late in the AoE4 timeline, and despite lasting until the 16th century, largely dropped off in prominence after Sigismund’s death. Luxembourg is a more recognizable name and the House of Luxembourg was immensely prominent rivaling even the Habsburgs in their time. It fits very well as a subdivision of the overall Holy Roman Empire.
I know that many people like Order of the Dragon, but it was really not very relevant compared to other orders such as the Teutonic Order (That ended up controlling much of the Baltics) and especially not as important compared to the House of Luxembourg that founded it. So despite being the most historically grounded, its also ironically one of the easiest ones to change to be even better.
So these are all the names I recommend and detailed historical justifications and reasonings for why I picked them. Feel free to let me know what you all think in the comments.
You’ve done a really great job 
Age of Empires community can be proud to have people like you in it.
But I’m starting think about version that these names are just a cipher. They should give us a hint of what the civs will be. But they are not really them. Perhaps you have solved this riddle from the developers now.
In any case, I would be glad if the game will have the civs that you described.
Thank you! and just to clarify for anyone who may comment later:
I am not boycotting the expansion, I am not disappointed by anything else I have seen in the expansion, I am extremely hyped, and extremely proud of the fact that an issue as fixable as this is the ONLY issue that I and many others have to complain about. The Devs have done a fantastic job updating the game, balancing it, and making something truly extremely enjoyable to play. Age of Empires 4 is one of my favorite games!
The reason I am so passionate about getting involved in the Civ name changes, is just because I want to see Age of Empires 4 and all the Devs hard work be as successful as it can be, I am a bit of an OCD history nerd myself (If reading everything above didn’t really tip that off), so I care more about thematic consistency and historical accuracy probably more than most, but I am mostly offering these ideas just because I want to help the devs and make their lives easier as much as possible, both in making this IMO necessary step of changing the names possible, as well as giving them the opportunity to really impress the community and all the doomsayers by proactively fixing this issue and giving us yet another reason to praise them.
For the people who don’t care about the names, I am super happy that you don’t get bothered by the same stuff I do, and I am super excited to play AoE4 with you and experience all the cool new Civs and mechanics. I just hope I can do it as something like the Cathay or Luxembourg 
That all said, lets try to keep this thread both positive and academic. Happy for constructive criticism, but lets all just do our best to help the devs 
and I’ll patiently wait how this single comment will aged like milk. I’m not mocking you though, It’s good to have that kind of confidence & take on this situation, but for me this is the last straw. I think it’s time to finally move on from this game completely.
Still plenty of time for the developers to make changes, both before release, and even after release. I have already pre-ordered and have no intention of canceling. I will just wait and see from here how they respond. Hopefully they either make changes for the variant civilization reveal videos, OR they address the issue with some open communication before then Either way, all I really can do is have faith in the devs. So I am going to try to be optimistic!
I saw that the civs website has already confirmed it. But these civs are too absurd to be true. And each name is wrong for different reasons. It is impossible to make one claim to all civs. They all have different problems. Fantasy, person, abstract army, real order but not related to HRE. There is no single logic in these problems. They seem to have been deliberately created wrong for various reasons.
They’re all good ideas. Kudos to you.However, I disagree with one. Sigismund made Vlad ###### ## Vlad II Dracul a first class member of The Order of the Dragon. He was the much more famous member of the order. Known for his Ottoman captivity and later battles with Mehmed II, and renown for his cruelty and extreme brutality. He carries the name in the colloquial memory. With this in mind I posit that the community embrace The Order of the Dragon, because my bet is that they had Vlad in mind.
I’m sorry to have to rip you out of denial but it really is true. It was confirmed to the content creators who have already seen them. These. are. true. (for now)
His nickname is even blurred today, kekw
This is a common misconception. They are not the same person. The Order of the Dragon member was Vlad Dracula’s father, Vlad Dracul. He is much less renowned and more of a footnote in history, only really referenced due to his much more well known son. In fact, he was usurped and murdered for, among other things, making peace with the Turks. As far as I have read, Dracula himself had little to do with the Order of the Dragon, considering he grew up in Ottoman Captivity.
Also, I’m sorry, but I am Romanian, and seeing a Wallachian speaking German and leading German speaking armies into battle would feel very weird to me (yes I realize HRE spoke more than German, but the civ itself will retain HRE voicelines, hence it will speak German). It’s bad enough he speaks Russian in the AoE2 campaign.
