[Poll] What is your expectation on Elephant in the room: Persians Changes?

Purple

My prediction is Big Changes. What I anticipate, rated by likelihood.

90% chance: Persians get receive FU steppe lancers – Persian identity back in AOC days was being the only civ with a fully-upgraded stable. That’s still kinda true if you regard steppes and Battle Eles as regional units that don’t count, but this identity has still been drained a bit. TriRem is still at FE and loves these sorts of civ identity things. I consider it extremely likely that any Persian overhaul gives them Elite Steppe Lancer with full upgrades. Coupled with their elephant UU, and they’re basically back to having a “full stable,” or something close to it.

90% chance: Persians get Central Asian architecture – This gets requested all the time, and it’s well-known that the architecture set is based on Samarqand, which was a culturally Persian city in this time. Devs have changed Spanish, Byzantine, and Vietnamese architecture in the past so this wouldn’t be a big deal.

90% chance: Mahouts tech remove or reworked – FE devs have steadily been either removing or altering UTs that only affect UUs. Panokseon is out, Berserkergang is out, Royal Heirs was changed. A never-researched UT for a never-made UU is ripe for getting drummed out.

75% chance: Persians get 1 new normal bonus. Persians only have 2 standard bonuses as currently written up, and while the TC/dock HP/workrate bonus has a lot within it, it still leaves the Persians looking and feeling rather boring. Not only do they have few bonuses, but all of their standard bonuses are economic in nature. They’re crying out for a military bonus of some kind.

50% chance: Persians get a UT or bonus affecting Cav Archer – A lot of people really want some kind of CA for Persians. Some want it for historical reasons (Persians used tons of CA) and some for gameplay ones (Persians would be the first no-Bracer civ with serious standard CA play). One idea I’ve soon fairly often is giving them a UT that gives CA +3 attack, so they have the hardest-hitting CA in the game at the expense of bad range.

25% chance: Persians get a new UU – A lot of people have talked about Persians getting Savarans or some other cavalry unit as a new UU. I am skeptical of this. War Elephants are an original AOK UU and are pretty iconic, so even if they suck I really doubt they get removed entirely.

15% chance: Persians lose double TC HP. Persian douche is controversial but has been around forever, isn’t OP, and is not that massively hated. I think people would be sad to see it removed completely.

10% chance: Persians receive elephants in the stable – This would happen if FE really wants to bring back the Persian “full stable” identity. Conceivably could be paired with them getting a new UU, and the War Elephant either leaves entirely or becomes an upgrade to the Battle elephant.

4 Likes

Little change can change a civ from top to buttom, or the opposite. Just think of the Portuguese organ gun

What if they don’t remove but only add a new UU?

That unit would have made a nice hero skin.

A previous message of mine

Agree with most of this.

  • Architecture - Personally I could take it or leave it, but wouldn’t be surprised to see it change.
  • Mahouts - I think that’s about 99.9% likely now considering those three UTs you mentioned. I was honestly surprised in April when it wasn’t removed.
  • New Bonus - Agreed. Maybe Free bloodlines. Hits right in castle, helps both cavalry and CA, and no one else get it for free.
  • New UT - Yeah I’ve heard a lot of different flavors of this. I think I’d have CA have an atk bonus vs pikes and monks. War Elephants still have their weaknesses, but mix in a few of these buffed CA to help them with their counters.
  • Removing War Elephants & Battle Elephants - Agreed. They’re just too iconic to be removed. Maybe they could be a unique upgrade, but I’d be heartbroken to see them removed entirely.
  • TC HP - I think you just need to tweak the bonus so that it takes effect starting in feudal. If you’re TC is in serious danger in dark age, either you’re getting douched or you’re flat out getting outplayed.

EDIT - Is has been brought to my attention bloodlines is a feudal tech. I swear I double checked this as I made this very mistake not a weak ago but such is life.

I really hope they will take the occasion for a dlc in the style of doi. Persians are one of the original civs to still lack a campaign. If I had to personally do it, the DLC would revolve around Bukhara, I would add hepthalites and gokturks along with a koshrow campaign.

3 Likes

Looks awesome, are there more removed units like this?

3 Likes

Bloodlines is a feudal age tech

I was thinking Elephant Archer, or maybe Battle Elephant with different skin (which latter is unlikely, because of the current War Elephant)

Central Asian building set with Steppe Lancers sounds tasty for me though.

A third option is to allow Sogdian catas in the Stable.

I swear to god I got that wrong last week and I checked it right before I wrote this to make sure I didn’t make the same mistake lol. IDK how I could check it and still get it wrong lol.

Husbandry. HUSBANDRY hits right in castle.

1 Like

Guess what, Cumans already have free Husbandry (and scales better in Imperial, while also you have faster scouts in feudal).

I thought so but when I went to the husbandry tech to see which civs got bonuses it was not in that list. I guess it’s not technically husbandry, but you’d think that if you were going to page about a tech that increases the speed of calvary, then went down to the section about civ specific bonuses for that technology, you’d think to see that there a civ bonus that does the same thing but better and starting an age earlier. To me that would seem to be some relevant information. But apparently the editors disagreed.

You are correct. No civ gets husbandry for free, but cumans get something better that takes effect earlier for free.

War Elephants kinda stand out as odd in a Persian civ since they weren’t that common in their armies during the Middle Ages, since they had to be brought all the way from India and that wasn’t particularly practical.

Am sure they only got them because it was the only civ in AoK originally where they kinda-sorta made sense to include, but we’re a long ways from those days with over half a dozen civs having battle elephants now, so they feel less special now.

I’m completely on the camp of thinking War Elephants will be replaced with something else for Persians.

2 Likes

I’d much rather War Elephants be made more practical. Elephants in general, for that matter; right now they’re just not useful in the early parts of the game, and then become progressively more OP as you mass more of them, which IMO is kinda the opposite what you want for them.

If War Elephants were more practical earlier on, the whole gameplan could change for Persians.

Based on pro critique, the biggest issue is their crazy vulnerability to monks, with War Elephants especially being a major outlier even among elephants. Converting one war elephant is much easier than converting a knight, but gives 85% more value just in terms of resources, and something like 250% more value in terms of combat capability.

Even a rank amateur can convert a war elephant, and it’s all over. SOMETHING needs to be done about monks and elephants.

Personally, I’m thinking of some sort of elephant civ specific monastery tech that somehow makes elephants more resistant to conversion, but somehow only in small numbers.

Ooh, I asked chatgpt and it gave a decent idea. What if you could garrison a single unit on an elephant, which would be converted instead of the elephant if the enemy tries to convert the elephant? The thing about this is that it would require the player to manually garrison units on their elephants, which would be useful early on with small numbers of units, but would become prohibitive in terms of both apm and pop cap in the later parts of the game.

3 Likes

Chat gpt to the rescue lol. Admittedly that’s more interesting than I’d expected.

2 Likes

I think there will be medium size changes.
So not just a few numbers being moved around a little but also not a massive rework.

Maybe the Cavalier and Paladin get replaced by a unique unit like it happens for Romans.
That unit could also be a regional unit like the Winged Hussar.
Small tech tree changes and changes to their UTs also seem likely.
But I don’t think we will see the combination of a lot of changes.

I expect Central Asian Architecture and some pretty significant changes. Otherwise why announce it with a cryptic message?

It is a crime that this is not used in the game somewhere.

Just add it as a replacement for the Cavalier & Paladin as the Grivpanvar & Elite Grivpanvar.

4 Likes

maybe next time ;), i remember someone getting it wrong but didnt notice it was you11

1 Like