It would also give them the option of
free -heresy-(not available) (forgot they didn’t get it)or faith
If I have to give free monks upgrades, I would go for fervor and sanctity, since they are 2 of the most important upgrades (but still less than redemption), improve a lot your monks, and also helps the eco a bit, because it allows you to secure relics sooner and safer.
But that usually is the buff suggested for spanish, and arguably they are in more needvof a buff than Italians.
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I think we should also consider potential military buffs, like:
- units deal extra bonus damage (like +1? Or a percentage?)
- some general extra attack speed for all the soldiers (small like +5-10%)
Another idea is a bonus of the kind: “this unit is affected by this tech” like bohemian vills. But in feudal nothing good comes to my mind. Maybe archers affected by another blacksmith tech?
I am thinking of something like “archers are affected by forgin” or “archers are affected by the first cavalry armor”. Only the feudal tech (so archers will be +1 in imp and not +4 after blast furnace)
+1 on a pike seems useless…
Don’t see the necessity.
Mmm interesting…
Supplies affecting pikes? Or Skirms? Nah too strong… maybe knights?
Squires affecting archer line? Nah the +5% movement speed would be better.
That might be too much. A +1 in feudal it’s a lot.
Or you just give them +150 gold at the start of the game.
Or berries also gives back gold. Like, every 3 food you get 1 gold (300 in total on arabia) or every 5 food 1 gold (180 gold).
I mean, Italy always had more commodity in the forms of fruits, berries and similar things, than in the from of grain, and sold the excess.
Italians do not need a buff /thread
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yeah sorry guys, got to agree italians are doing pretty ok on the ladder nowadays, there’s a number of civs that might need buffs a lot more than italians do at the moment…
so if anything it would have to be something very small and specific to dark age/feudal… which i think the majority here arent doing …
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And I agree, but do you have suggestions?
Eco buffs may be more difficult imo since they are not land specific. Still I like the gold generation from berries. They are less relevant on water since you fish.
You pay for it, it may have sense. Otherwise just the armor
These are not very “feudal”.
It would be a bit better for spears. Good for skirms in general
A small general military buff
Maybe it could affect the trash units with a smaller effect. Like 10% discount on food. But again in may be too late as feudal buff
I was actually more thinking in general… not necessarily for Italians… more of a brainstorm to say.
Yeah I’m convinced again that there isn’t much of a way to buff Italians in feudal, and I’m still more towards either my 2 initial ideas, or just the usual castle/imp buffs.
Maybe a free upgrade in castle, to make the power spike bigger?.. I don’t know…
Perhaps newly made town centers spawn 2 villagers? It would give them a sudden boost to eco that declines in the late-game yet would be great for mid-game
Mmm not a fan, it’s a bit like the current sicilians TB (which thankfully will be changed).
Also, it’s a big buff on water, since you can boom better on islands. That’s always the main problem of italians, buffing the eco always buff the water play, and some military buffs too have such effect.
The way I see it, a feudal buff need to be something limited for that age, that doesn’t improve the castle age or the water metà much.
Like:
- Walls are built 50%.
- Starts with +150 gold.
- Berries also gives back gold. (either like 1g every 2/3f, or like you receive 30g when the bush is exhausted).
- TR is 33% cheand available in feudal.
Those are small bonuses that exhaust by castle age time, so they don’t improve italians on the moments when they are strong.
Then there is also a new “problem”… in the new pup, the LS have been improved a lot (cheaper upgrades, +1MA) so that makes the condos ever more useless…
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Another idea, may be that squires affects foot archers. It may be even just by 50% of its effect, so xbows move 5% faster.
To that effect, it could be added that squires is available in the feudal age. This wouldn’t just buff their archers line one age earlier, but it would also improve their M@A and spears (to better catch scouts).
So maybe:
Squires is available in the feudal age, and affects archers by half of its effect.
Of course then you can adjust the bonus, buff it or nerf it on various aspects, like removing the feudal age factor, having it affect archers by its full effect, just anticiape it without affecting archers, that starts in the castle age, and so on…
Play with it and see how it may work best for you, then write it down here.
I think this is an extremely good idea. Even +10% speed is not that killing imo, personally I think the result would be similar.
The other option I was thinking of was supplies affecting some trash unit (maybe spears and skirms) which work nicely for me.
Overall I think that Squires for archers is better (even it’s full effect). It helps also GCs
They also have cheaper ballistics-chemistry and +1/1, I don’t want to overdo it.
Still, the bonus may be introduced and then adjusted. For example, you may see that +10% is balanced, but then move it to castle age.
There are possibilities. You can even increase the cost of squires to balance it.
It should also just affect xbows and GC.
I thought of that too, but then I compared it to the byzantine bonus, and minus 15 food is huge.
Yeah but you have to pay for it and it does not affect the wood cost. It is still a good bonus and quite balanced imo.
If the bonus should kick in in feudal age, then this sounds bad. If it acts in feudal, then it would be pretty good. To me, even a 5-10% as civ bonus would make a lot of sense.
It would be a military bonus (so no eco boost on water), helping the civ with archers (as the civ should be an archer civ), starting in feudal.
The Squires idea makes everything more difficult to have, but I still like it
I have suggestes this for burmese (barrack techs affecting other military land units), which would help them for their weird transitions and make their bonuses more cohesive. Manipur cavalry should be tweaked this case due to arson, and they should lose husbandry because squires is cheaper and do the same. Their archers wouldbt became sarracen archers like because of not having thumb ring and 2 last armors.
Supplies would still affect only militia
I like this idea although it is similar to byzantines discount. Also, how much food would it be discounted? 15 food or some proportional ammount?
Supplies is going to be buffed, and it’ll cost just 75f and 75g, so after just 5 pikes/skirms it has already payed for itself.
And it’s the food cost the main problem, because they are units that need to be massed in a time when you also need food for vills and eco.
Even if it would be just 5 food saved, it means that after 15 units it was worth, and 15 units are like the minimum amount of spears/skirms for feudal age.
The bonus may start as squires available in feudal, then it also affects the archer line for half of its effect. Then if it’s too strong, the early part can be removed, if it’s too weak, you can give archers its full effect.
Or you can like, increase the research time if you tech into it in feudal, or like increase the cost in feudal.
I mean, even +5% in feudal for 100 food, with a cheap ballistics it’s still a soldi bonus.
Consider, that as pure archers, italians would be still behind the other archer civs, but they still have good cav.
+10% moving speed on every unit is broken…
It’s even more than the cumans bonus, and it would affect everything, even BE…
I mean, this idea doesn’t have to be for Italians archers only, but this way it’s too much.
I didn’t elaborate my previous post, but in the original post on the burmese thread, I stated that this can be tweaked making it affecting only foot units, only infantry+cavalry, only infantry+archers, only barrack/stable/ranges units, etc. My favourite one is making it affect cavalry and archers.
I did not suggested to move squires to feudal, so squires still would have to be paid in castle age, when cumans have extra 10% for free. And husbandry already does the same. As I said, I would remove husbandry if this bonus applies to cavalry, so all cavalry remain the same speed-wise, but through a cheaper tech. The only true novelty is the speed for archers, as you suggested for italians. Even siege units (which I’d leave unaffected) would move much slower than mongol ones.
It wouldnt be as broken as you think specially for burmese. For italians, it would be a bit more broken because arson archers would be more viable. However, still, arson archers have limited effects compared to sarracen ones, because the sarracen bonus is more useful in feudal and early castle (before masonry is researched), and arson only would be researched in castle age.
Even if you let them affect just cavalry for example, it’s still a lot. It’s basically double husbandry.
If you let affect just archers, we’ll it doesn’t make much sense for burmese…
I mean, movement speed can be a strong bonus, that’s why I have it affect just one unit, and at half effect.
Ok, I didn’t saw that, but still, I don’t see the point.
Infantry will stay the same, as cavalry. And buffing archers doesn’t help burmese.
Anyway, maybe it’s just better to have a cheaper uni, SE, and some bonus damage for condos and call it…