Yeah, but for as much I would like to see them buffed, I fear that it might be too much.
Mean, weaker bonuses were discarded. The bonus itself is a good idea, but it’s too much for them…
In the end, squires is a super cheap upgrade. And believe me, I thought of a lot of bonuses to buff them, but I always end up with discarding them when I look at the history of italians buffs.
Is 10% faster that strong? An archer would be slower than a pikes after Squires if I remember properly
It’s about the speed of a rattan archer, only on a unit that can be spammed from a range.
When I gave a similar bonus to my fan-design civ, to balance it, I gave them terrible cavalry. Italians instead have good cav.
Maybe just discount the xbow upgrade, or TR.
Yes it is. Making archers faster means they can dictate wether to take or not archers vs archers fight, running away from skirms and micro better against literally everything. With that italians would have faster archers with extra armors and cheaper uni techs. Come on now
Or maybe just don’t. Italians already have cheaper balistics (which is the most important tech for archers in castle after bodkin arrow), they do not need an extra power spike in castle.
You people keep discussing buffs for a Civ that is B tier on arabia (Viper arabia tiers list https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6pOIp1Kbn4&ab_channel=TheViper), A tier on arena (Dracont, an arena professional clown, tier list https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H9vc7fS0sw&ab_channel=DracKeN_TV), S tier on water maps and, depending on the hybrid map, between A and S on hybrid.
Please, just give me a reason why a civ that is NEVER bad should get a buff
I think because Italians, among the archer civs are by far weaker and less picked, but that doesn’t mean they are bad, played properly they are deadly, in Arena they are basically A tier for instance.
To make Italians, Koreans and Vietnamese more used in both 1v1 and TGs (so people realize their strenght), the utterly dominant archer civs in both settings (Mayans and Britons) need major nerfs, that’s it.
This is not a reason to buff a civ that it’s the strongest in a setting (water maps), very strong in two settings (closed maps and hybrid maps) and good in the other setting (open maps) imo.
i get it, they are not as strong as Mayans on arabia, but they are stronger than them on all the other settings
Mayans may definitely need a major nerf just because too strong actually. Not sure for Britons.
Vietnamese are ok imo, now they eco bonus is good.
Koreans got two cool buffs in the past for feudal fights.
Italians get the university bonus which helps for ballistics, but it is coming too late. I think the devs have done a good job by nerfing the water to add cheap ballistics and chemistry (SE is a pity!). But still they need something to play a decent feudal. 75 spared food until the click up and no military bonuses is probably the worst feudal ever.
Devs have fixed some issues like turks (the major issue in the game imo) that were considered frustrating by many. Personally italian feudal age or Burmese archer weakness are still open points.
But I mean your profile pic is the britons UU 11
They aren’t invincible, but their extra range they get as soon as they go to castle age becomes too powerful, Skirms and Mangonels can’t fight it and the best to do is having luck to face that, combine that they get sheep food 25% faster, and their archery ranges also work 20% faster, is too much for a powerspike, and that only continues to grow in imperial at +2 plus +1 from Yeomen, at that point, why you ever invest into Longbowmen?
That is essentially worse at TG when the other flank is also another powerful archer civ (esp Ethiopians and Mayans).
On top of that a civ that historically was their nemesis for years (aKa Franks) is also an absurd teammate that can cover easily their weaker areas lol.
Overall I dot not think that Britons should be nerfed and Italians should stay as they are. Probably Italians need a buff independently. They woul still brutally suck in feudal even if you nerf the other archer civs
Ok guys, when I created this topic, I just meant to find small buffs and changes for the Italians in the feudal age.
I was thinking of something on the scale of giving the condos a +2 vs EW, like saving 1 second for tile of palisade.
Nothing too big or too crazy, for they could have given them a cheap uni, and they would be fine with some other small changes. But that ship has sailed, and so I tried to explore and experiment wit other ideas.
My goal was to try and find something so small, that people couldn’t say no, and so at least help them a bit, but it seems that for most of the people here either Italians need a super good bonus or nothing at all.
There is no compromise…
Like this. Italians are good on water and decent on arena, we all know that. I wouldn’t push for a buff if like 99% of the maps are arabia-like.
Are they passable or arabia too? Yeah for sure, but that doesn’t mean that they are perfect or that they couldn’t benefit from some minor changes.
I don’t want to give them houses that gather resources, but if any minor buff is discarded by saying that they are fine, then what’s even the point of disputing.
Some people prefer to buff weak civs, some other prefer to nerf strong civs. I’m personally more the first approach, but it doesn’t mean that I automatically discard the second one.
And then we go to the other side of the continuum…
10% more speed on archers from feudal is strong. Archers thanks to their range are one of the most meta units, you give them a good speed bonus too and it’s over.
With 10% they would almost be fast as a rattan, and rattan and plumes have lower range and requires a castle to balance that speed. You can’t really think that such bonus is balanced.
I know that I’m the one that suggest it, but it was more of a thought experiment. There were tons of ways to make it more balanced (like having it from castle age, having just half or a third of the effect, having squires cost more, letting it affect just GC…) but you go straight for the strongest option.
Guys, each one of you have their opinions, and that’s fine, but let’s try and to meet up in the middle?
I believe that if we all put our efforts together, we can come up with a solution, a compromise, to buff the Italians without making them OP in any context. Even those who don’t wants to buff them, they might agree on something small that makes everyone happy.
They are still considered to be the best civ on water maps
Being A tier on arena is not “being decent”, is “being very good”. Not amazing, but still very good.
If a civ is S tier on water, A tier on closed, A tier on hybrid and B tier on open it doesn’t need a buff becuase at worst they are “normal” on one map. Not every civ has to be A tier at least on arabia, especially if in the other settings is a good civ.
Except italians are not a weak civ even when it comes to arabia. They are just a middle of the pack civ
Then I give up, if nobody wants to met me at the middle of the road then there is no point on keeping up the discussion…
Let’s just let this thread die.
Why? You are getting a lot of replies and proposals
I’m kinda tired, for each suggestion there is another one that say that italians are fine and they don’t need buffs. It’s like hitting a wall again and again.
In the end, those are the suggestions, and they are always the same:
But what’s the point if there is no meting in the middle…
Forgot to add free infantry armor techs.
Everything proposed in the forum finds some sort of opponents. Some people tend also to be conservative, e.g., say that Turk trash was fine
Some of these are very reasonable but the topic was specifically for a feudal buff. Also there are several ways to buff archers starting from feudal, like:
Ofc, unless you add some new mechanics (siege absorbing damage, infantry building towers, cavalry with a special attack, armor removal units…) the options are limited
(slowly) Renerating archers?
Polish villagers regenerate from dark age…
Good also this one. Not that great but okay, then perfect for Italians
I agree, some civs need a minor buff, Spanish and Italians for example.
The problem with Italians is the fact that before Imp the civ is too generic, no eco bonus, no bonus for their units and even if they have a good UU, it’s too slow to mass.
Considering that their main anti-cav unit is the GC i’d like an option to make them more viable, maybe creating at Archery range or some sort of creation speed buff, i know that they already buffed in past patches, but i feel they are still too hard to mass considering the pikes and camels production rate.
They are fine as unit, but so hard to mass and its fragility doesn’t help. You need like 3/4 castles to have a consistent production and that’s very hard even in late stages of the game.
I feel like GCs are a unit viable only in team games, on maps like Black Forest, Fortress, Arena and other closed maps.
SE is not necessary in my opinion, because the civ is really good in Imp.