Pro players keep forgetting this is a game for everyone, not just them

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
24

Did you by any chance flag/report MY last post? Which was in response to someone elses post?

Because both my post and the post i had disputed have both disappeared?

I would consider my post to have been far more logical and not worthy of dismissal via having it removed. Since, my last reply did NOT contain any “ad hominem attacks”, which is the reason you assert as being the basis for which you committed to the action of flagging/reporting particular posts?

I merely referenced psychology and linguistics, in relation to group dynamics and personality types.

I also gave a complete “refutation” for anything subjective.

Simply put, one can “perceive” something (perception = personal subjectivity), yet everything is still objective.

An example would be the earth (it moves thousands of kilometres every second, yet we do NOT experience this movement “personally”).

personal experience = subjectivity

So if you “believe” that one’s “subjectivity” actually
exists and is even a valid metric, then the must by necessity of the logical framework (in order to maintain internal consistency in the argument FOR “subjectivity”), thus declare the earth to NOT be moving.

However, the simple fact is, we “know” the earth moves, however, this is NOT because of any “subjective experiece”. This is solely due to observation and experimentation. Using logically consistent frameworks by design.

Just to be clear. I was the one who was “accused” of being illogical by way of using “assumptions” which i did NOT make. There is perhaps the chance that the post i replied to merely misunderstood the argument i was putting forth, and i may have also failed to convey what i was stating accurately, yet that would still not excuse the actions which were undertaken.

By which i mean -

1). Accusing myself of making assumptions

2). Making assumptions after accusing myself of such a thing

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25

I actually rarely play ranked after watching so many top tier streamers say the same things - “omg, you didn’t get the boar in the first *** seconds, if you don’t do that you are guaranteed to lose” kind of things. I love the game, I love high level play and the strategies, etc. Just those things irk me lol.

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Hey @ChancierPrism63,

I appreciate your input and your goal of approaching this in a logical way. However, a lot of your remarks sound aggressive and the way you write kinda puts down other members of the community.

I realize it’s difficult to judge attitude on text-based messaging, so I don’t want to judge you too harshly. Just thought I’d let you know how it’s coming off to me.

Cheers!
10

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27

Thankyou for the information. Although i do not understand how exactly what i have said may be misconstrued as sounding agressive, i would presume that my own, possibly “excessive” use of capitalization may have played a part in the lack of clarity of my content in regards to to what you may refer to as the “overall tone”.

Just to be clear, it was never my intention to have any tone in my messages, whether implied, or otherwise explicity stated.

Although it is possible that i may have ocasionally went off an a minute “tangent” at different times it would mostly have been to resolve discrepencies for the purpose of clarity in communication.

During my messages, i merely chose to deconstruct the arguments present into their most basic logical components and “frameworks”, and then proceed to use the argument “structure” in a different “context”, i.e. chaning the subject matter while keeping the “same” argument format.

Also, i am much better at communicating face-to-face, but online? Not so much :smile:

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28

Yeah, I think this is a really delicate balance.

On one side, pretty much all esports have nearly identical or completely identical starting conditions. (Take Rocket League for example) Since gaming competitions have large amounts of money attached to them, it kinda takes away the “just for fun” aspect and introduces a demand for professionalism and consistency.

On the other side, games were created to be used for entertainment. When there is no real-world value attached to winning or losing, people play the game for the sake of playing the game. This is the game’s core player-base, and it’s important to keep the gameplay quality high.

Ranked is in the middle of these two extremes. In my opinion, ranked should be kept on the random side of things. I think the variety provided by randomness is more valuable than the guarantee of an identical starting condition. Matchmaking is never perfect, so there is already some random unfairness.

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29

Yep, I gotcha :smiley:

(I wish I had time to discuss some of your points, but alas, the time escapes me…I always like a good debate :P)

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30

It is actually 2:30AM where i am. I am about to sleep. lol :smiley:

But if you are ever interested in a debate, or if you see something which you think i might be interested in discussing, just send me a message. I am more than willing totalk about anything and everything :smile:

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31

I’ve never seen such a comment from any of the streamers yet. I can see how it can be irritating to follow such strict build orders sometimes, however I can also understand that it may be crucial to lure the boar in a timely fashion. I guess the point is to not be judgemental about it, and also the gameplay needs more flexibility

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32

Things like pro players losing a villager to boar or getting lamed and still winning aren’t that rare.

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33

Yeah, there are lots of things that can happen and strategies that can be played that can disrupt the snowball effect.

34

Life and the aoe2 “de game”, are the same thing.

I think many people here actually do believe this.

What would this mean for the definition of the word “fair”, used in this context? And what greater implications does this have on what it means to “live” or “have fun”?

35

I second the motion to restore Chancellor Prism’s posts. I do not believe “he” was at all “out of line” in the things he spoke.

In fact “his” is a refreshing voice of reason among the nerd rages and temper tantrums one usually sees around here.

Down with repression! Persevere with me during this attack by our big-brother moderator on our “free speech”!

36

I think, the game must have Randomness, but it must be equal to the 2 players. If the Gold and Stone are near to the enemy player, the I will start at disadvantage. These forward resources will be hard to defend, and easy to the enemy player to harass my villagers… At some sports, the players changed the starting position after some time( 1-2 games for tennis and 45 minutes for football). But here, at Aoe 2 DE, I do not know how it may be done.
So, I think the starting position of the players and the nearby resources, and the Hills must be the same. Only at the centre of the map, BETWEEN the players may have difference. So we will see how players play at different maps, with EQUAL starting nearby resources and position, and hills. So if I start at a map with forward stone and gold, the other player will have forward stone and gold too. So we will see who play better with better skills.
So, we will NOT see a foootball match which start with advantage 10:0 for one of the teams.

P.S. I saw some games at Arabia and Coastial maps which were played at Explored map as Black FOrest and Arena. There , the battle begins from the start of the game . While at a Black, Unexplored map, ussualy the battle begins after reaching Feudal age, or even Castle age( when is explored part of the map by the Scout). These were Total war battles. Much more unpredictable.

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37

If they start a 10000$ game they should choose a fair custom map along with it.

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38

I don’t see how pro-players are forcing anything down anyone’s throats.

Ranked games should always be fair, Sure because you want a fair environment.

Normal multiplayer games should come as they are, I don’t see how these multiplayer games get affected fun wise.

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39

I appreciate randomness in AoE, and games, in general, too. Far more games should have random map generation than currently exist. It’s a bit of a dying breed.

For FPS multiplayer games, everyone just perfects every little detail, nook, cranny, UAV control location, and spawn point of the map they’ve played 100 or 1000 times, and know exactly where to go and when. It can be fun to master game map, sure, but with randomness, it would be refreshing. Oh for the day when you can use a UAV on a randomly-generated map and not get sniped within two seconds since nobody would know where it is.

For AoE, if my sheep are 50 more pixels (or even 500) away from my Town Center than my enemy’s, so be it. If my gold is one one side of TC and stone on other side, but enemy has them right next to each other, so be it. If I’m closer to water and fish than my enemy, awesome!

Overcoming discrepancies and hurdles, adapting to the on-screen hand we’re dealt, is a nice challenge.

For AoE eSport tournament and pro players, sure, give them a few maps that are cut down the middle and perfectly mirrored on each side in terms of layout, resources, and gaia – if that’s what they want. Those maps likely already exist. Casual players would be welcome to use them, too.

But for most random maps, in general, I wouldn’t want such mirroring, as the randomness adds nice gameplay variability. I would think some pros would want randomness, too, to see if they still win after being dealt a less-than-stellar hand or one they’re not used to.

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40

Free speech? I am actually from Australia, where we only have an “implied” right to free speech in our consitution. Which could theoretically be taken away from Australian citizens should it be voted for.

We also do not have a “Bill of Rights”, and as such, we have no guarantee our rights cannot or will not be taken in the future. This includes the “right” of “free speech”. :smile:

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41

I’ve edited out the bits of my post that were too edgy for the moderator team.

Nobody utilizes maps with 100% efficiency, that’s a fact. People are imperfect. Further, no decision is automatically the best decision. Counterplay from the opponent is always the deciding factor as to whether or not your decision was good or bad.

Secondly, “favorable” positions on maps is completely subjective and depends almost wholly on what civilizations and strategies are opted for in a given game. A “favorable” map for the Franks, counting in their cheaper castles bonus may not be a favorable map for the Ethiopians in the same place given their very different strategies and approach to the game.

You make a lot of assumptions of people as a whole, competitive minded and casual, and you shouldn’t because you don’t speak for others, you speak for yourself.

Also, since the conversation has progressed significantly since the last time, and there’s one more interesting point to opine on… If you want to play an RTS with set map positions where everything is perfectly fair and balanced because the map is specifically built that way and spawns consistently that way, there are a ton of popular options. If you want to play an RTS with a completely random map every game, there’s far fewer, and only one I’d care to count. That, in my eyes, is as good of a reason as any to want the random maps to be, and remain the standard, as it’s one of those specific bits that makes AOE unique in the RTS genre. I’ll take that over the occasional bad seed everytime.

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42

Oh, I meant to say one more thing in my last post.

Randomness also helps make the game feel more like a real world, organic, natural environment, and less like a cookie-cutter, human-made, perfectly engineered world purely for gamers to have a perfectly even match.

In other words, more like I was plopped into this beautiful real world to explore and use its organic natural terrain and resources as best I can, and less like a gamey game that has a world designed just for me, a gamer.

Because of this, I regularly avoid playing maps that look like they are split up into two or four perfect, identical or mirrored sections.

43

In fairness, I think that in situations among professional players where money is on the line in tournaments, they have every right to standardize maps or to eliminate extreme imbalance. At that level, it’s like playing tournament chess where you don’t want “dumb luck” to affect the outcome of matches or tournaments especially if thousands of dollars are at stake.