Pro players keep forgetting this is a game for everyone, not just them

Ok, I am not trying to be bitter or anything here.

Lately, meaning the last few months, many in Twitch and the game’s high spheres keep ranting and complaining and crying about how unfair certain maps are, and then we have T90Official and several others modding the game, creating new map versions and pressuring Microsoft to make changes so you always get a back gold/stone, the number of risks reduced because they serve as free walls, etc. etc. ETC.

While I understand their motivation for all this, I think that all of us need to remember that this is a game. It is not Microsoft Excel. It is not a tool for work. It is a tool for fun. And there is fun in randomnes, and there is fun in unfairness. A good player could lose to a bad player because the former gets all forward resources, for example. Among a group of friends playing, such occassion could be hilarious. And guess what: Hilarious is good because, again, this is a game, for FUN.

So instead of forcing the pro player needs down everyone’s throat, I think Microsoft should just deny all of the requests while still allowing for fair tournaments by allowing the game to run custom maps or anything else they need to have their perfect competition games where the best wins because they are the best, and not because of some gold tiles being up front.

Opinions and rants welcome. :smiley:

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If u got 2 front golds, play the game and have fun.

Life is not fair, buddy. Unfortunately.

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Exactly my point. If you are a pro player, forward resources make the game more interesting for you, I would say because it gives the less agile player a better chance. And yes, it can also go the other way around. Randomness!! Embrace it. Love it. Live with it.

imo no one cares about what 10 people have to say, its the thousands that matter

Counterpoint : ranked games should be fair, including the maps. If casual players want randomness and unfair maps, that’s what custom maps are for.

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Counterpoint: Ranked games are games after all. If you are taking it too seriously, you have a problem!! Hehe. But I see where you are coming from. Good stuff.

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This simply shows that there will always be some people that complain about everything. How on earth can someone be against fairer maps?

The idea behind fairer maps is quite simple: fairer maps make the ratings more accurate and you can simply use the MM rating as seeding for tournaments. Thats way better and fairer for the players: seeding isnt done purely subjectively based on names anymore, but objectively based on rating. And therefore everyone gets the same chances to qualify for a tournament.

Also if you are on a level, where you think this game is only purely for fun and you are just here to play with some friends, then very, very likely you won’t have the skill level, that forward gold/stone or a very open map is game deciding.

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It’s like in sport: there will be a point where some people are so good that the least tiny detail will have a huge impact.

Good news: Team Fortress 2 is a free game. If you wanna test 'fun" and “unfair” in the same sentence https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Critical_hits (these things are disabled in comp for a good reason) Of course, AoE’s map generation is not as direct in its consequences and those are often unnoticeable in normal gameplay (ie.casual players won’t notice) but if you wanna get behind for no reason you can play a board game.

Welp, you make it look like pros are fun haters and all, but when they have a moonwalking scout they laugh like everyone else, and even when dumb stuff like flying mangonels make them lose the game they are laughing too (ok, maybe if the bug wasn’t fixed they wouldn’t do so long 11)

Welp, that’s what people have been doing before, but now there is a ranked ladder for everyone. The game is heavy enough as it is to not add a slightly altered version of each map.

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So when 2 pro players start a game with a prize of $10,000 winner takes all, and one starts off with an advantage, and ends up winning, because of that advantage, would you STILL be saying that?

Also, such an advantage can ONLY be utilized effectively by those who ARE in the professional leagues and someone who"normally" plays aoe2 de is quite likely NEVER going to even realize that such changes even occurred to begin with.

Also, unfairness is NOT the same as “randomness”, and unfairness is NOT fun!

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Randomization affects things on a game by game basis but it finds itself at par in the aggregate.

The idea that Randomization would somehow make rating systems less accurate and therefore not a valid method (or a less valid method) of seeding is just nonsensical. This is essentially the scrublord’s prayer for AOE2 I think. Normally in online games people will just blame their teammates, but in a 1v1, your only teammate is the map you land on.

In my view, randomization helps to separate the pack, because consistency in the face of randomization proves skill to an even higher degree than consistency in the face of no randomization, since it shows how adaptable and knowledgeable they are.

Lastly, if someone loses a last-game chance at a large sum of money, for whatever reason, that sucks. Dramatize losses in a tournament, like we would dramatize Momochi’s controller failure at EVO 2k15. Everyone plays with the same rules. Momochi lost a round to a controller glitch. He won the tournament because one lost game does not lose a tournament. If you lost because of a bad map, chances are that wasn’t your only chance to make a victory happen where you needed one. Great players adapt, regardless of the adversity.

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“”""""“Counterpoint: Ranked games are games after all. If you are taking it too seriously, you have a problem!! Hehe. But I see where you are coming from. Good stuff.”"""""""

Counter-Counter-Point…The Olympics is “just a game”… the “olympic games”, so if someone uses a substance to make themselves perform better, it is UNfair, but remember… it is “still just a game”…

Could everyone stop using the ridiculous argument of “it’s just a game”, for it is not an argument at all, but merely a way to criticize and deflect counter arguments, by dismissing them as “not being of importance” or even “lacking validity”, by implying that the “subject matter of discussion”, should not be taken seriously, due solely to the subject being to related to the conceptualized action of “doing it for fun”.

]Use actual logic, the argument you put forth has no substance. AT ALL.

Also, who are you to decide, what constitutes “fun”. Perhaps some players of aoe2 de actually prefer to “have fun”, by ACTUALLY “winning”??

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Maybe it’s just me but I didn’t understand the meaning of this post.
Pros and casters are community leaders and they’re pushing the devs for a better gaming experience. This is both normal and needed in every game. Not to mention that the current state of the game needs a lot of work in almost every aspect of the game, therefore it is only natural when more experienced people give input for the devs to implement.
Another argument I wanna make is, that it is more benefical when the pro scene leads the overall gameplay experience rathen then casual players dictate the overall game state. This way, both players and devs push the game into a better experience. Casual gamers shouldn’t be ignored of course, but in this case, I don’t think they are at the moment.

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“”""**If u got 2 front golds, play the game and have fun.

Life is not fair, buddy. Unfortunately.**"""

Life is not fair?? How subjective.

What is your evidence for this assertion?

How do you define “fair”, “unfair”, “unfairness”??

Your reply ACTUALLY “contradicts” the original post. Because you stated “LIFE is unfair”.

However, the original post proclaimed “as their justification” for their baseless complaint, that aoe2 de is “just a game”.

So UNLESS both you and the original post BOTH declare that “life and the aoe2 de game” are the same thing; Then what you have just said, completely NEGATES the original post!

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You know there are such things as “single round elimination” tournaments, right?

Also, ONLY those who play at the PRO level will be ABLE to ACTUALLY utilize their location on a map with 100% efficiency. So if there is a discrepancy in the location of gold and stone mines, on a particular map, with a single player having a more FAVORABLE POSITION, then that can EASILY “snowball”, into the “single biggest difference” between “winning” pro “losing”. Especially, if both players are of a relatively similar skill level while being AT the PRO level.

There is also the fact, that the ONLY ones who would notice such a change, WOULD BE the PRO level players, themselves. MOST PLAYERS who ACTUALLY play the game on a “casual basis” would NOT even notice such a change, LET ALONE even care.

The ONLY THING a casual player would even want is to be on a level playing field with their opponent, or at least, have perceived themselves to be on a level playing field with their opponent.

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If you want to have fun, get whatever mods you like and create custom maps. Noone is going to stop you.

People in this thread already gave good reasons why your arguments are pretty bad, so I’m not going to repeat them.

One more thing though: Why do you want to force your definition of “fun” on everyone else? Did you every consider that people (not only pros) like fair games and competitive aspects of a game?

It makes sense to have a fair environment for ranked games. There’s absolutely no point changing that. And as I said: do whatever you want in your custom maps with people who share your definition of “fun” (which are probably a lot less than those you are attacking btw.).

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I love how you call every competitive player a pro :smile:

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Well either way while I get what you’re trying to say. I think compromising for both sides is the way to go. My suggestion would be a “Pro” toggle for all map types. In multiplayer if you reach a certain Rank you get to play in “Pro” matchmaking where this is set on by default. People who like the randomness of AOE can enjoy it that way while people who understand why it matters have matchmaking that is more consistent. Also you can be dropped out of “Pro” if you lose too consistently since it’s more skill based.

I think this would be a good compromise

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that is why i like playing on nomad and megarandom. its always unpredictable

@OP “make the ranked matches more random” no thanks, this is probably one of the worst recommendations ive seen so far, giving players equal starts has nothing to do with reducing fun, if anything a majority are happier starting on equal footing, or how would they like it if every game (if we were to follow your logic to fullfilment) by pure chance they started with no sheep or boar, while their opponent started with everything, maybe throw in a couple buildings,(for “fun”) would get stale really quickly…

some nice rants going on here, flagged a bunch of posts for (including OP) for offense and/or ad hominem attacks…

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i know we dont always agree, but in this case i fully agree with what you said

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