[Proposal] Palatine School Rework + Hippodrome improvement

[Helloss73]

Hello gentlemen and Constantinople lovers

I played a lot of Byzantine since its release, and i enjoy the civ in it’s current statement.
However, there is a thing that i dislike and don’t understand : The palatine school.

While the Foreign Engineering Company has a real utility and is an active and attractive monument as a super siege shop, the school is just a chance to get one unit offered while you pay for another. This is not an accomplishment at all. I mean, when you play other civs there is only Dehli that have the same system with the Palace of the Sultan, but it creates a totally free unit (and a very powerful).

This building could be so much more to synergize and hype the Byzantine native units (i’m not saying we need more OP buffs on cataphracts).
RNG has nothing to do in a RTS game (while you play a civ, the map is the map) and the 30% chance to spawn a unit is a mistake. It’s not fun, and i don’t want a passive monument only interesting if i can spam cataphracts (which is rare until you play in team games (and i don’t care to get an extra maa or limitanei, this is ridiculous).

What i propose :

• A bunch of units that only can be trained here for a mixed cost of gold and olive five by five. The units could be as the Wynguard Palace units (in a Byzantine style).

or

• An upgrade researchable to improve one of a regular unit in a “palatine unit”.
  Ex 500f 500gold: light cav become the Vigla, which gains the teardrop shield and +1attack +1armor melee
  Ex 2 500wood 500gold: archers become the Noumeroi, which gains a fire rate bonus and +1dmg if fighting in the area of an allied forum, wall, or castle.
  Ex 3 500stone 300gold: villagers become Optimates, they don’t need a building to drop their collected ressources.

or

• A new special unit, the siphonarios. Based on the Greek fire, but on land. It works like the chinese grenadier.

These are some ideas that could be very cool to replace the Palatine School and give a bit more complexity and fun to the Byz age 4. What are your thoughts ?

[TheLiberator236]

Excellent ideas!
Bizantines for the win!

[OriginalKnot717]

Palatine school is the better landmark of the 2 options. It gives you a 23% discount on all your unique units.

Foreign engineering company just lets you make some nest of bees that cannot even be upgraded so you are better off with mangonels anyway. Also what is the point in it giving mercs special abilities if in order to get value from the landmark you must spend all your oil on siege?

[Xaskas]

Royal cannons from Foreign engineering company are arguably some of the best siege in the game and the unique technologies it gives to your mercenary units are pretty good. Camel support for camel riders and precision training for javelins are great value.

[GoldenArmorX]

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“Palatine School”, The Case

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As far as I understand, based on information revealed in the game data, the Palatine School was originally going to be “Another Mercenary Building called "Western Mercenary Company”, to recruit more European Imperial Age mercenaries.

However, as I assume they ran out of European units to add, of which there were only four up to that point (Which they even used anachronistic ones, like Landsquesnetes from 1470 or Streltsy from 1545), they decided to turn it into a building to recruit “more units” from the Byzantine Roster.

I assume it was a last-minute decision, and that’s why it only gives “Extra Units” instead of new elite units.

Ultimately, they chose a civ with an impressive culture, BUT, they conditioned it to simply be a civ of pure mercenaries. At the last minute, they realized it was a bad idea, and so, through “systems reengineering,” they made one Landmark retain the mercenary effect, and the other one spawn more units of “whatever.”

[Helloss73]

Thanks for these replies.

I will develop a bit these ideas and include some changes for the hippodrome that is not getting the love he should have.

Actually, in my opinion, there are two ways to play Byz.
→ The full mercenary’s path with a strong olive eco. You aim to explode in age 3/4 while using the contract roster, principally with one unit from the main roster to tank the damages (a lot of limitanei, sometimes MAA or cata depending on the context).

→ You go on an aggressive play, based on a mix of limitanei+LB or javelines + rams (which is basic and not very fun, we are byz, not english lol).
OR
You go on a raid build with hippodrom which is pretty tricky to play atm (cause this monument is a lot of cheesy if you get pushed away and can’t make damages, while getting very interesting to synergize with cata in mid/late game, it does not offer a real sustain if your push is not that good. Anyway, if you are able to make pressure with lightcav, you gain time to pop the Tower age3 or a better eco (2tc) but the tower is not a building that is logic in the hippodrome play style (you get principally infantry while you want cav). Rus is the best example : you don’t want to force a mass archer if you have the possibility to continue the harass with horse archer, especially in team games. I admit 1v1 armies have to be versatile.

Actually, after the ECGTV Elite Classic III, we have a better statement about what Byz Gameplay is in 1v1 at high elo. So i want my ideas more focus on how to make byzantin improved on the main roster and i won’t talk about the mercenaries. They developed it with the units already existing, and i don’t think it’s a good idea to put new units from the recent patch in the merc roster.

For the hippodrome viability in long games, i propose a new unit proper to Byz and historically accurate,
Heavy Horse Archer

Unlocked at archery camp in age 3 if you build the hippodrome age 2 as a heavy mounted archer
90HP 2 base melee armor but get bonus damages from crossbows and gunpowder
3sec attack speed and 14 base damages 0 range armor
MS 1.625 Range 4.5 LOS 6.5
Can benefit from the teardrop shield with a +1distance armor (as i said, this is to focus on the Byz roster)
They have a speed based on heavy cavalry, low rates of fire but more base damage. This unit aim to have a “native byz archer” with specific characteristics. To improve the unique play style and not reliable only on other civ mercs.
Active ability : Plumbata (1.5min CD) Unit in melee range (1.5 Tile) are slowed for 20% MS for 5sec and get 5% more damages from any sources

Skin ideas :

I’m going to develop my ideas for Palatine school in the next post. Again, thanks to comment and help me to made these change real for a well designed civ which lack few unique vibes (archers and palatine school as i said ).

[Helloss73]

@Helloss73

siphonarios

First and most Basic idea :

A new Age 4 unit : The siphonarioi
This new unit aim to put more interest on the Byz Army and situational utility because getting free unit on a civ which have already so many features on free things (merc, olive sell in market, cisterns… and eco boost is a nonsense.)
This unit could be a pike of what a “fun” aoe4 unit is. We love elephants, we love longbows, we love Teutonic knights… why ? Because they have a unique vibe with a great impact on the battlefield.

As an elite squad, Siphonarios are heavily armored to resist against fire and put themselves in the front line to burn everything down. The main differences between them and Cheirosiphon and trebs upgraded with Greek fire is the ability to “DOT” units with fire damages rather than putting AOE effects on soil. This works like the poison on Malian javelins and archers.

Siphonarioi can be trained at the siege workshop
Cost 80F 80W 80G
Count as heavy
170HP 2 armor melee 2 armor distance
move speed 1.25 - attack speed 1.625 - range 1 tile - line of sight 7 tiles
damage count as siege damage (to work with bonus while firing against buildings)
They deal 20damage per second in front of the “flamethrower” and an additional 10 damage for 10sec as a DOT. This allows to kill fleeing unit.

Benefits from Greek fire projectiles and get +0.5 tiles range
Bonus against light units of 20%.
Take double damages from other powder units and units buffed with incendiary arrows.

This only unit could be such a great adjustment to make Palatine school more interesting, but it needs some unit tech for it or other units to make the monument interesting in late game.

Skin idea :

[Helloss73]

Palatine school new utility system :

Palatine school unlock now 3 uniques ways to upgrade your units in AGE4 based on a “learning system” and a decreasing cost technologies. After all, it’s a “school” and should work like it.

→ Tagma elite tactics : 700F - 700W - 700G 1min
Each time a horseman or a base archer kill an unit, you gain 10XP. When you reach, 1000XP. You can upgrade these both for a superior rank for free, or a discounted price on the tech capped at 50% if you don’t have the XP requirement (mini 500XP).

Noumeroi contingent 30s to 1min depending on the XP reached
Archers become the Noumeroi, which gains a fire rate bonus of +25% and +1dmg and +1 ranged armor if fighting in the area of an allied forum, wall, or castle.

The Vigla 30s to 1min depending on the XP reached
Horsemen become the Vigla, which gains the teardrop shield and +1attack +1armor melee and 5%Move speed.

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→ Magister militum 1000 olive oil - 1’30" min
Each time you train a limitanei, varagian guard or cataphract, you up a counter to ten. The tenth unit to be trained will be a Stratopedarches unit. Stratopedarches cost only olive oil. If you can’t train them, there is a stacking system up to five which appear at the palatine school, allowing you to delay the recruitment (max 5).

Stratopedarches have 33% more base stats and carry the Byzantine flag which encourage the army with a cooldown ability, increasing the damage done by 10% for 10 ten second for 10 units around.

This tech aim to replace the basic function of the Palatine school while putting a real interest for olive oil in a late Byz meta based on unique units.

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→ Optimates : 300F 300W 300G 300S 300O - 2’30min min to 5min depending on the XP reached
Each time a villager harvest a resource, the tech gains 1XP, each time a villager build a building, the tech gains 10XP (5 for small buildings : camps, houses, towers…). When you reach 5000 XP,
villagers become Optimates, they don’t need a building to drop their collected resources.
You can research the tech for a discounted price capped at 50% if you don’t have the XP requirement (mini 2500XP).

Let me know what you think about these proposals and if you feel them better than a simple LIDL building printing free unit with nothing fun to do with it. Btw imo, Byz is a very cool civ, hard to master, but very open to several strats and this type of rework of the Palatine school could add a more smart end game with real objectives and utilities tech.

[GoldenArmorX]

Having clarified that the state of Palatine School was the result of a last-minute systems reengineering, I think a rework would be best to give it a more optimal function.

The problem is the “cavalry” extra unit, because in comparison with cataphracts, they are already very broken, so to give them another “more broken” special cavalry unit wouldn´t be optimal. Personally, I wouldn’t have given them that much HP; I think they went overboard there.

You are right that RNG (Random generation) is problematic for this game, especially since “this is a game where multiplayer has too much impact.” Allowing a civ to save itself or gain more troops based on “gambling” random generation is problematic. If it were a Dark Age or feudal era, it would be “unforgivable,” but since it’s in the Imperial Age, where resource generation is so optimal, it almost goes unnoticed, but the problem still exists.

Now, I agree with the Wynguard example. The Palatine School could work in a similar way; technically the name says it all: “Palatine School.” The Palatine Guard was the Emperor’s guard, and it changed between eras. During the game’s time period, all units were known as Tagmata, but their types varied as Noumeroi, Vigla, and Teicheiotai. These are therir names in Greek, but in english the have anothers (Numeri, Watch, Walls guards).

The optimates are bag, tent, and equipment carriers, so I don’t count them; they’re supposed to be the golden villager ghosts that help the siege crew arm and reload.

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New units for the Palatine School

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Noumeroi (Numeri)

Infantería pesada con gran vitalidad. Posee la habilidad “Numeroi Guard” que aumenta su ataque, defensa y velocidad cerca de Landmarks y Keeps.

• Noumeroi guard: Cerca de Landmarks, Keeps or Walls, aumenta +20% HP, +20% Atk, y +20% speed.

HP: 200, Atk: 16, Speed: 1.125 Armor: 6/6, AtkSpeed: 1.375.

Vigla (Watch)

Caballería pesada con gran vitalidad. Posee la habilidad “Vigla Expedition”

HP: 300, Atk: 25, Speed: 1.75 Armor: 4/4, AtkSpeed: 1.375.

Teicheiotai. (Walls)

Arqueros con armadura pesada. Poseen la habilidad “Watch archers”, aumentan +1" de alcance extra y +15% velocidad de ataque sobre murallas.

HP: 120, Atk: 9, Range:6, Speed: 1.125, Armor: 2/4, RoF: 1.625

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And we’d have three extra units of all three types: Cavalry, Melee Infantry, and Ranged.

[GoldenArmorX]

@Helloss73

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The Teicheiotai could be a Siphonarioi, so we could cover the fact that they are depicted on walls, and it would make sense for them to fire Greek fire from them at enemies, like the last line of defence of Constantinople walls.

And we’d have three extra units of all three types: Cavalry, Melee Infantry, and Ranged.

@Helloss73

→ Magister militum 1000 olive oil - 1’30" min
Each time you train a limitanei, varagian guard or cataphract, you up a counter to ten. The tenth unit to be trained will be a Stratopedarches unit. Stratopedarches cost only olive oil. If you can’t train them, there is a stacking system up to five which appear at the palatine school, allowing you to delay the recruitment (max 5).

It could be a good mechanic for summoning extra units. As for whether they should cost Oil or “free tickets” like the Japanese gunsmith Tanegashima, I think it’s more a matter of balance, but the idea is good.

@Helloss73

→ Optimates : 300F 300W 300G 300S 300O - 2’30min min to 5min depending on the XP reached
Each time a villager harvest a resource, the tech gains 1XP, each time a villager build a building, the tech gains 10XP (5 for small buildings : camps, houses, towers…). When you reach 5000 XP,
villagers become Optimates, they don’t need a building to drop their collected resources.
You can research the tech for a discounted price capped at 50% if you don’t have the XP requirement (mini 2500XP).

Update: At first, I thought you were referring to the Optimates of the Palatine School, who served as support units, basically carrying the baggage for the rest of the Royal Guard units.

But I think you were referring to the “Optimate” social class, which were supposedly citizens of a political class that supported the interests of a portion of the Senate. These ceased to exist when Rome fell in 476, or even earlier, so I don’t know if it’s right to mention them in Byzantines.

About balance, it seems to me that “economically,” the Byzantines are already doing well enough to give them another extra economic bonus. In fact, the Atlantean economic bonus of “not using camps” was already very broken in Templars, and they don’t even have wood harvesting bonuses. Adding this to the list: Aqueduct bonus + Theoretical bonus of not using camps = the most broken civ in the game.

[Helloss73]

I believe the main problem of the palatine school is his emptiness, and anything that replace this void by a new feature could be cool.
Let’s resume :

The main ideas we have

• new units
  and/or
• new techs
  and/or
• passive xp system

The functions could be

• a mix between university and Wynguard : Put an utility on olive oil to buy upgrades or recruits Byzantine themed age 4 units (Vigla, Noumeroi… with unique characteristics mentioned).
• an upgrade system, so the monument remains passive, but you have to unlock the techs by fighting or collecting.

To remain funny, and don’t be a game breaker addition, the amount of possibilities on the monument should be about 3 or 4 slots for units or techs. While the foreign engineering company is already a production building, the school could be more about indirect upgrades. While you up your age you get nothing directly (the weakness), but when you unlock the tagmata units (for all your basic units) or the new one like Stratopedarches, you get a nice advantage.

In addition, i think the siphonarioi should be added as a special siege infantry unit unlocked at siege workshop (this limit the spam cause of the wood price).

[Salgore]

the problem with byzantines is the fact they are mainly an oil-civ. If you build Hippodrome, then you will lack on lots of oil potential, which means you will play the civ at half its potential.

[Helloss73]

That’s why hippodrome is a mess and it should be reworked.