Proposals for future Balance Changes [2025 May]

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

Civilization Balance Header Gold
Civilization Balance Header Gold800×200 48.2 KB

Partly to take a breather from the controversy over the latest DLC (which I didn’t include, of course), and partly because there are still things that the developers haven’t fixed, I decided to make this thread. Despite the chaos of the last two weeks, you have to give them credit for balancing infantry & co.

I’ve tried to explain the reasoning behind certain choices in the notes, and I’d also like to point out that the Armenians and Georgians are a community effort, with many ideas coming from the various threads on the subject over the months (I hope I didn’t mess up).

The style is that of the official patch notes, I hope it is understandable!

General

  • Warrior Priest speed reduced from 0.85 → 0.82.
  • Condottieri are now affected by Gambesons.

Note: Warrior Priests cannot be faster than the Militia-line, it makes no sense. Condottieri affected by Gambesons is the most consistent thing ever, even more so after the introduction of the Fire Lancer.

Armenians

  • New units
    • Gain access to Heavy Cav Archer.
    • Gain access to Paladin.
  • New technologies
    • Gain access to Parthian Tactics.
    • Gain access to Shipwright.
    • Gain access to Plate Barding Armour.
    • Gain access to Siege Engineers.
  • Mule Cart
    • Lose access to Mule Cart.
    • Gain access to Mining Camp and Lumber Camp.
    • Mule Carts cost -25% removed.
    • Change from Mule Cart technologies are 40% more effective → Mining Camp and Lumber Camp technologies are 40% more effective.
  • Civilization bonuses
    • New civilization bonus: Warrior Priests +100% heal speed.
    • Galley-line and Dromons fire one additional projectile removed.
  • Cilician Fleet
    • Demolition Ships +20% blast radius; Galley-line and Dromons +1 range adjusted → Demolition Ships +20% blast radius; Galley-line and Dromons fire one additional projectile.
  • Fereters removed.
  • New unique tech: Master carpenters
    • Available in Imperial Age for 800 wood 800 gold.
    • Allows the creation of Trebuchet at the Siege Workshop.
  • (Elite) Composite Bowman
    • Training time increased from 12 → 15, Elite 10 → 13.
    • Elite Composite Bowman reload time reduced from 2 → 1.8.
  • Lose access to Champion.
  • Lose access to Herbal Medicine.
  • Lose access to Plate Mail Armor.

Note: I know it’s a dream we’ll hardly ever see, but the design looks pretty solid to me. They are still an early infatry rush civ, but the presence of Paladins, Siege Engineers, Siege Workshop’s Trebuchets, means that going Imperial is a perfectly normal thing to do. As for Composite Bowman, they now produce on average the same as Genoese and Rattan; this change was made possible by finally having options in the Siege Workshop. The Elite version has the same fire rate as the CA with Thumb Ring (Crossbows have 1.7 in the same situation).

Aztecs

  • Civilization bonus: Villagers carry +3 extra resources adjusted → Villagers carry +4 extra resources.
  • (Elite) Jaguar Warrior
    • Pierce armour reduced from 2 → 1, Elite 2 → 1.

Note: I honestly think this is an oversight. All units of this type (e.g. Berserk, Samurai, Letis and Cataphract) have 1 pierce armour.

Bohemians

  • New technologies
    • Gain access to Hoardings.
  • Civilization bonuses
    • New civilization bonus: Hoardings is free.
    • Mining Camp technologies are free adjusted → Gold Mining and Gold Shift Mining are free.

Note: It would also separate them a bit from the Koreans (stone collection bonus & no Hoardings). I do not know if Hoardings free is too strong.

Britons

  • Civilization bonuses
    • New civilization bonus: Archery Ranges work +20% faster.
  • Team bonus
    • New team bonus: Watch Tower-line +1 attack.
    • Archery Ranges work +10% faster removed.
  • Elite Longbowman
    • Range increased from 8 → 9.
    • Upgrade cost increased from 850 food 850 gold → 950 food 950 gold.
  • Yeomen
    • Cost changed from 750 wood 450 gold → 350 food 350 gold.
    • Effect changed from Foot Archers and Skirmisher-line +1 range; Watch Tower-line +2 attack → Spearman-line and Skirmishers +1 attack.

Note: partly inspired by the changes the developers made to the Chinese. You can change the name of Yeomen if you like, but it should still be correct.

Burmese

  • Howdah removed.
  • Civilization bonuses
    • Battle Elephants +1 melee/+1 pierce armor adjusted → Battle Elephants +1 melee/+1 pierce armor in Castle Age, +2 melee/+2 pierce armor in Imperial Age.
    • New civilization bonus: Relics visible on the map at the start of the game.
    • Infantry +1/+2/+3 attack in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age removed.
  • Team Bonus
    • Relics visible on the map at the start of the game replaced → Relics generate wood in addition to gold.
  • (Elite) Arambai
    • Attack reduced from 12 → 11, Elite 14 → 13.
  • New unique tech: Poison darts
    • Available in Castle Age for 400 wood 300 gold.
    • Mounted archers deal 3 extra poison damage to non-siege units over 10 seconds.

Note: the Burmese are described as an Monks & Elephants, so the infantry bonus was always misplaced. Moreover, this new Unique Tech would also give their Archery Range a purpose (the actual balance to be tested), obviously also applies to the Arambai.

Byzantines

  • Logistica
    • Cataphracts deal trample damage, +6 attack vs. Infantry adjusted → Knight-line and Cataphracts deal trample damage, +6 attack vs. Infantry.
  • Lose access to Paladin.

Note: very slowly try to reduce the civilisations that have access to Paladins.

Georgians

  • Svan Towers reworked.
  • Aznauri Cavalry removed.
  • New units
    • Gain access to Arbalester.
    • Gain access to Warrior Priest.
  • New unique buildings: Svan Tower
    • Same strength as Watch Tower-line, improvements in the university.
    • Same cost as a tower, but also provides +5 population space.
    • Unique look that already exists.
  • Civilization bonuses
    • Changed from Mounted units regenerate 2/8/14 hit points per minute in the Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age → Knight-line and Monaspa regenerate 10/15 hit points per minute in the Castle/Imperial Age.
  • Svan Towers renamed to Encastellation
    • Same effect.
  • New unique tech: Tadzreuli Infantry
    • Available in Imperial Age for 500 food 350 gold.
    • Infantry units (except the Spearman line) +30 hit points.
  • (Elite) Monaspa
    • Cost changed from 60 food 45 gold → 60 food 55 gold.
    • HP increased from 70 → 80, Elite 80 → 100.
    • Melee armor reduced from 3 → 2, Elite 5 → 4.
  • Nearby unit requirement for additional attack reduced from 7 units → 6 units.

Note: the whole balancing of the Monaspa required some work, but it was necessary. Without the Aznauri Cavalry tech, the Imperial unit becomes less pop-efficient, so you need to increase the cost and stats. Also, with the presence of the 100 HP Champion, it makes sense that they are slightly more effective against ranged units and slightly less effective against melee units.

Gurjaras

  • Civilization bonuses
    • New civilization bonus: Mills, Lumber Camps and Mining Camps have double HP.

Note: Not entirely my idea, but it is definitely right. It makes attacks on the Mill much more difficult.

Huns

  • New units:
    • Gain access to (Elite) Steppe Lancer.
  • Civilization bonuses
    • Mounted archers are 10%/20% cheaper in the Castle/Imperial Age civilization bonus adjusted → Mounted archers and Steppe Lancer are 10%/20% cheaper in the Castle/Imperial Age.
  • Lose access to Paladin.

Note: there is no reason why the Huns should not have Steppe Lancers.

Italians

  • Civilization bonuses
    • Foot Archers and Condottieri +1 melee/+1 pierce armor civilization bonus adjusted → Foot Archers +1 melee/+1 pierce armor.
    • Gunpowder units are 20% cheaper civilization bonus adjusted → Gunpowder units and Condottieri are 20% cheaper.
  • (Elite) Genoese Crossbowman
    • New +2 bonus damage vs. Spearman.
    • Elite Genoese Crossbowman base attack increased from 6 → 7.
    • Elite Genoese Crossbowman bonus damage vs. Cavalry reduced from 7 → 5.
    • Elite Genoese Crossbowman bonus damage vs. War elephant reduced from 7 → 5.
    • Elite Genoese Crossbowman bonus damage vs. Camel reduced from 6 → 4.
    • Elite Genoese Crossbowman bonus damage vs. Ship reduced from 5 → 4.
    • Elite Genoese Crossbowman bonus damage vs. Fishing Ship reduced from 5 → 4.

Note: the change to the Condottieri makes them more consistent with the general design of the civilisation (Italians also do not have Gambesons). At one point I would have suggested giving the Genoese +1 range, but with the new UT it creates the peculiar situation of the Genoese being the front line of the HC (if you go for both units); however, it is right to make them a little more versatile and less anti-cavalry.

Maya

  • Civilization bonus: Resources last 15% longer adjusted → Resources last 12% longer.

In the meta of MaA into Archers, the Maya are once again a power creep.

Mongols

  • Elite Mangudai
    • Bonus damage +1 against Sperman increased → +3 (thread).
  • Civilization bonuses
    • New civilization bonus: Lost Houses do not decrease population space.
    • Scout Cavalry-line and Steppe Lancers +20/30% hit points in the Castle/Imperial Age removed.
  • Nomads
    • Cost changed from 300 wood 150 gold → 250 Food 250 Gold.
    • Effect changed from Lost Houses do not decrease population space → Scout Cavalry-line and Steppe Lancers +25 HP.

Note: the final stats are almost identical. Some bonus could be added, I welcome suggestions.

Sicilians

  • New technologies
    • Gain access to Thumb Ring.
  • Hauberk
    • Cost changed from 700 food 600 gold → 500 food 400 gold.
    • Effect changed from Knight-line +1 melee/+2 pierce armor → Barracks and Stable units receive +1 melee/+1 pierce armor.

Note: the late game Archers / Infantry / LC used to be balanced around the 50% less bonus damage; now they are rather lacklustre. Even the Hauberk Cavliers look like a lame version of the Savar.

Vikings

  • Civilization bonuses
    • New civilization bonus: Infantry generate gold when killing Villagers, Trade Units and Monks.
  • Chieftains
    • Change to Infantry +5 attack vs cavalry, +4 vs camels; generate gold when killing Villagers, Trade Units and Monks → Infantry +5 attack vs cavalry, +4 vs camels.
  • Lose access to Gold Shaft Mining.

Note: It is so stupid to have to research Chieftains against non-chivalry civilisations for the raid bonus (it is currently 5 gold per Villagers; it is absolutely irrelevant for the Feudal Age / Castles Age). Moreover, the economy of the Vikings is totally unbalanced.

Edit. Armenians changed slightly
Edit2. Aztecs, Georgians, Mayans and Vikings changed slightly

3 Likes
2

Wont your change make Armenians a full Calvary civ? Dont see any reason not to go CA+LC/Paladin (good eco bonus, full cav tree)

2 Likes
3

Many have written how the archery ranges should be swapped between Armenians and Georgians. But imo it is OK if it is not done.

4

Yes… 20 characters

2 Likes
5

No European civilization other than Magyars and Bulgarians should have this tech. It’s mostly for the steppe civilizations. Magyars and Bulgarians are fine because they have steppe ancestry. And Armenians have such good economic bonuses to deserve such huge buffs.

They have always been Paladins since 1999. It’s better to keep the old civilizations as intact as possible to respect the original creators.

Mangudai should not be better than Mongol cavalry archers in every combat aspect; otherwise, you would have zero reason to train cavalry archers.

1 Like
6

I did not like the changes to the Armenians, so I stopped reading there.

9 Likes
7

Maybe, but then it kinda become another Huns / Slavs mixture which feel insanely boring to me

1 Like
8

Fair, but your loss

20 c.

2 Likes
9

Something needs to be done about deer luring.

It should either be impossible to push them, or your scout should be able to do it automatically. I’d favor the first option.

They certainly weren’t created to be cheesed like that.

1 Like
10

The Armenian/Georgian design in particular is questionable.

The Armenians are tier S+ in water maps, and in the others either the champion/UU combo works before the siege becomes a problem, or you can give the gg. For the Georgians, they have taken the defence of the Byzantines and added the mobility of the Slavs, so to speak. Perhaps the only solution is really no Heavy CA for both Armenians and Georgians (and change the healing bonus to Cavalry only).

11

I actually think Georgians are fine now after the nerf, but I guess it’s out of topic here

The reason I hate / dislike your change on Armenians, from gameplay perspective, is that it’s just another Slavs / Huns with CA options

  • Eco upgrade (+40% wood, which speeds up farming)
  • Full cav tech tree
  • Rubbish archer tech tree (because no arbs and thumb ring, I wont even bother with xbows)
  • Some CA options (both lacking thumb ring, Slavs don’t have the last attack but still playable in Castle age)
  • Good monks

Like it’s just another Slav with a paladin+CA option (so like budget Huns somehow…)

2 Likes
12

thanks for including hunnic steppe lancers and spreading the word. I like the no paladin but spam-able steppe lancers, it really fits the original hunnic theme of raids and not heavy cav. A good bonus could be steppe/cav archer +5 vs villagers, +3 armor vs defenses and it could be a bonus or replace athiesm

13

If needed, I would forgo the Thumb Ring and give the Composite Bowman better accuracy and rate of fire to compensate, and even keep the Arbalester after removing the Thumb Ring. I know their horse archers are historical but they already have the Composited Bowman as a usable ranged unit.

Personally, I don’t like a UT that only affects water.
I may give them Shipwright only if this UT no longer affects water.

Unlike the infantry or cavalry, the Trebuchet is not a unit that you may need to train 20 or 30 in a short time. The price is too high, making the Trebuchet unworthy training outside of Castles.

They indeed do not need this. Having no longer stone bonus can separate them from the Koreans.

Not a fan of these changes. You cannot make a technology called Poison Darts not affect Arambai, but Arambai’s attack is ranged and high enough, giving it poison/bleeding abilities is redundant; they have no real shortage of wood because of the free lumber upgrades, having Relics generate wood is redundant.

I’d like to give their Knights and Battle Elephants maybe a team bonus vs building, like the old Manipur effect.
And, I have a bold idea: replace the Cavalry Archer of Burmese, Khmer and Malay with Elephant Archer.

  • For Burmese, the extra armor may not affect Elephant Archer, but Howdah can.
  • For Khmer, the extra speed can also affect Elephant Archer, but Tusk Swords cannot.
  • For Malay, the discount can also affect Elephant Archer, but no Elite upgrade like currently they have no Heavy Cavalry Archer.

I’d probably make Knights able to trample but not have the extra attack vs infantry.

I recommend just making it an expensive unique upgrade that replaces Keep. This way you don’t have to create 2 more new visuals to replace the entire line, and it can be allowed to provide 5 pop space, and directly allowed its projectiles to pass through, then bring a new UT in.

I like them getting Steppe Lancers, and agree that their historical accuracy doesn’t require good heavy cavalry. However, in terms of balance, gaining the cheaper Elite Steppe Lancer probably doesn’t make up for the removal of the Paladin.

The Hunnic Horse should not be able to convert livestock, by the way.

Anyway, it should affect all buildings, especially TCs and Castles, not just Houses.
I still don’t like the idea of ​​it being just a plain worse Hun bonus. I’d rather they don’t have this bonus, and bundled it with the extra HP for the Scout Cavalry-line units as the effects of Nomads.

I’d like to rename this UT to Dane Axe for its pure attack improvement.

Other than the above, I have no strong objections, although I’d personally like to have the (Elite) Longbow directly replace the Crossbow and Arbalest to completely solve the problem of a civ having two units of the same type with the same gimmick.

14

If only they had a cavalry unit with as much Pierce Amour as they could produce from the stable… ah no, they already have it! 11

img
img765×294 25.5 KB

15

Indeed, so far I also do not think the Elite Tarkan can well cover the role of Paladin. To be fair, this will take some time to observe.

16

But we have Khitans and Jurchens coming out soon… Maybe wait and propose later?

17

The Armenians rework deserves a dedicated thread like the Persian architecture one.

1 Like
18

2 new steppe lancer civs, for huns its the perfect time to strike

19

Here are my current proposals, excluding Janissaries, which I have concluded in another topic.

Camel Rider:

  • Gains +3 bonus damage vs. Elephant armor class

Heavy Camel Rider:

  • Gains +6 bonus damage vs. Elephant armor class

Imperial Camel Rider:

  • Gains +6 bonus damage vs. Elephant armor class

Bombard Tower:

  • Projectile speed increased from 3 to 4

Cannon Galleon:

  • Projectile speed increased from 3.5 to 4
  • Range decreased from 13 to 12
  • Blast radius increased from 0.25 to 0.27

Elite Cannon Galleon:

  • Projectile speed increased from 3.5 to 4
  • Range decreased from 15 to 14
  • Blast radius increased from 0.30 to 0.32

Lou Chuan:

  • Anti building range decreased from 13 to 12
  • Anti unit range decreased from 10 to 9

Skirmisher:

  • Gains +1 bonus damage vs. Cavalry Archer armor class

Market:

  • Decreasing the initial food cost from 150 to 140.

Shatagni:

  • Provides +1 range and 10% faster firing instead of +2 range.

Pirotechnia:

  • No pass-through damage.
  • The technology’s cost is halved.
1 Like
20

Literally no one cares. You keep spamming over and over again, and it’s tiresome. Just leave the subject be, for La Hire’s sake.

3 Likes