but again, why do they need a nerf? what says they are too strong currently? and no, you proposed even early game nerfs to them.
so were going to nerf a civ for all because some low level players are laming? guess we gotta nerf every civ capable of laming then.
food for thought - Vietnamese, with a 10% bonus, would have one of the best long term economies in the game.
Italians save a total of 345 food and 150 gold from their bonus.
Currently the Byzantines save 330 food and 264 gold.
The Italians also get other discounts.
Dock and University technologies are 33% cheaper.
Fishing Ships are 15% cheaper.
Gunpowder units are 20% cheaper.
why people want to balance around noobs escapes me.
i mean, in theory balancing around everyone sounds great. in practice though it doesnāt work out well, because low skill players make so many mistakes that it makes it hard to balance around them.
and as can be seen by the data the op is using, it makes units which rely more on micro (such as archers) look worse then they are, and makes units like cavalry, which are stronger individually and more a move friendly, look better.
as seen by the fact that the OP wants to nerf Berbers and Indians, but ignores arguably 3 of the strongest civs in the game like Mayans, Chinese, and Vikings.
A lot of people say they are now quite weak in Imperial, you basically need to get absurd amounts of castles to mass Leitis properly, which is pointless against archers, and if you go with Skirmishers they are too slow and Hussars can snipe them, their infantry is trash, no Arbalest and the worst siege with only Bombard Cannon.
Franks need rework to Chivalry, such pickrate is because players can spam 192HP paladins in absurd ways, especially at TGs
this can be āfixedā with a bit faster mangonel projectile speed. IRL you donāt really have chances of dodging them, and since itās a strategy game, microing vs 3 onagers shouldnāt be a thing, as itās common. Iām not saying they should be a lot faster, but maybe 20% faster for the start should be fine:)
The Byzantine bonus would be much better. Just remove the italian one.
I think that Byzantines would be pretty fine with this new bonus, they are not OP atm.
I mean, saying āuneducatedā but not knowing about Berber speedy vills is not really nice.
Besides, thouse were just ideas and not ALL to be implemented - i think the civs are fine, but i proposed the changes so that we might DISCUSS them here and that devs might get some inspiration - because they usually balance based on winrates.
The best eco in addition to what they already have. That bonus would be game winning for meā¦
would it though?
āvillagers carry +50%ā ā villagers carry + 55%
ā¦i donāt think it would be that hugeā¦or maybe could it be +5%? They (viets) are quite underutilized, arenāt they?
Maybe even just the change of paper money would be fine:)
Changing paper money is ok for me in general, we may discuss if having splash damage on archers is balanced.
it would not be that huge, i calculated it 11 maybe that would be even underwhelming. Testing would ofc be required though:)
Maybe make the Vietnamese unique tech either
Or
Both options would have a relatively low cost
Giving Franks bloodlines would be kinda weird. The whole point of the current bonus is that they get it for free. If it feels OP, just add (from Castle Age) to their current HP bonus, and thatāll be enough nerf for their Scout rush.
Win rates do not indicate that Berbers need a nerf. Especially when combined with civ pick rate. If a civ is OP it tends to get a higher pick rate.
Indians are fine, just hard to play because you canāt just do knights and siege.
Huns do not need a buff. They are a solid civ, they have a very strong all-in potential in early castle.
Just kee[ the current relic bonus as it was, and cut the starting food to +75. and restore blast furnace
As you said, Vietnamese are a nice civ. Iād actually change BOTH UTās because extra HP on elephants is like putting a hat on a hatā¦
Perhaps something like this could be made into the new castle age UT. I donāt have any good ideas for an imperial age UT, maybe speed bonus for Elephants, but that already exists for other civs.
Just give them a minor dark age bonus. Like starting with some extra wood or something, they donāt really need smth huge.
Malay already have a good early game tbh. 100% faster advance sounds extremely dangerous. Iād just revert the fish trap nerf and that would be it.
Your suggestion is effectively a nerf to the civ, so hard no.
Just give their Light Cav bonus dmg to archers and cav archers.
i rarely see pros microing against 3 onagers,1 or 2? yes. but that requires a great deal of skill, which should be rewarded. but the point of it was to show you why you shouldnāt be using win rates alone. especially āoverallā winrates. which are going to make archer civs appear lower then they really are, and inflate cavalry civs.
here are videos that are at least more accurate about how civs are, even if it is a little dated.
furthermore, again, as you continue to ignore, your data is OLD. it isnāt based on the current patch at all.
donāt forget villagers moving faster, cutting wood and mining faster, and of course, farms having more resources.
I would say that goths vills with instant loom have a laming problem, not the berber vills that are still vulnerable to your scout.
And drush arenāt for killing vills, but for applying pressure. For kills, archers and scouts still work fine. But even if the berbers villa would be more safe, considering the lack of an early eco bonus, I would say itās balanced.
Lastly, berbers at low elo levels are at a 52% win rate, which is quite balanced.
Celts lack the last wood tech, so they have a 15% lead in the early ages with a just 5% eco lead in imp, and on one resource.
Burgundians save some food and can get those upgrades sooner, but in the end you get the same vills of every other civ. You also need a good plan to make use of such bonus.
Your vietnamese would gather wood 10% faster in feudal, 20% faster in castle, and 30% faster then other civs in post imp (25% faster than celts).
Then gold would be gathered 10% faster, stone 20%.
Also, their wood discount bonus is already pretty good, and itās considered one of the most useful discounts of the game, so I donāt know why change it.
Yeah for sure, but not on a ranged unit that is super spammable and easy to mass since itās cheap. Especially because we all know that arbs have a low RoF, so letās stack up even more damage that ignore armorā¦
Thankfully patching is fantastic and that never happensā¦
Thatās not so hard to do with viets wood bonus and their tanky archers that survive more.
But those affects expensive melee units, some are even UU. Hell the cataprhacts are the most expensive units to upgrade.
As for polish we still need to see if itās balanced or not.
I mean try it if you want, you can do it in the editor, then you can make a mod out of it so other people can test it too.
So byzantine saves about 100 resources more.
The dock techs are useful on about 2 maps out of 10 as the cheaper fishing ships.
As for the cheap uni, yeah itās useful, but hardly on the same level of cheap pikes, skirms and camels, since youāll always use at least a couple of such units.
And the gunpowder discount is so late that except for some BBC is almost useless. The BBC are even without SE.
Byzantine vs italians on arabia, I prefer byzantines, especially with all 3 cheaper age ups.
Vietnamese are fine, when they got the cheap eco tecs their winrate was just fine, the problem with them is that there are just too many archer civs with better economy or military bonus, because if you see them in action they perform good enough, you canāt boost them any further, the players seem to not like the civ for the long term use and that is actually cause we have just too many similar civs at this point, there will be more and more civs falling in their winrates despite being fine.
If you give any eco bonus to byz then they will need to lose/decrease their trash discount, cause that is actually a strong eco bonus that allows more units in the field without affecting the vill production, byzantines like i said more than a year ago needed a small update to catch up with all the newer civs and bonuses, most of their units are below generic at every single front, bloodlines is still the only upgrade that could make them competitive without breaking them for both 1x1 and tg(adjusting cata HP and maybe even losing HCA is a good deal), but well it appears that townpatrol was all they were needing to be popular and skyrocket their winrates lol
About indians they are stronger than ever in castle age and they are still very obnoxious at team games cause of the camel spam, they have never had low winrates on good levels, in fact they have been among the highest and they have been very common at all tournaments on land maps even after their shorefish bonus was decreased, at this point i hate indians more now cause they are more difficult to play against than before cause archers donāt counter those lc in castle age and they will be always ahead on economy.
Huns need something, but about tarkans i mean look at coustillier cost and stats, even keshik, did you know that paladins takes buildings down as fast as elite tarkans, the difference is not even noticeable, despite being advertised as an unit with bonus vs buildings, even imperial camel, or arambai were doing more damage to buildings than them, so this is about balancing their UU according to other current UUās in the game, the tarkan needs either a cost reduction or their bonus vs buildings increased.
Against normal buildings maybe. But against stone buildings of any kind tarkans win. That said tarkans should be buffed against normal buildings
Tarkans do much better vs stone defenses. Tarkans will do significantly better against Town Centers*, Castles, Towers than the knight line. Theyāre basically good at quickly wiping out the opponents economy, as after that, all the garrisoned vills are exposed for the kill.
Trash units that Byz have discounts for have one big disadvantage: inability to project pwoer/apply pressure. itās nigh-impossible to do any meaningful damage with spears and skirms. So itās one of the weaker discounts really.
note: tc isnt a stone defense building, but Tarkans have bonus damage against it
Isnāt aoe stats quite outdated with its tstats not even on latest patch.
I already disagree with the initial comment of the post that teutons meele armor was a good change and the new sicillisn team bonus is bad, so I donāt really like most of the proposal too