I mean, I remember players like MrYo had gone so far as to stonewall in Arabia just to boom a little with Poles
When was this? Obuch still give -1/-1 for each atk. The only obuch nerf listed on the wiki is a train time increase (from 9 to 12 seconds)
But overall, Poles have only ever been broken on closed maps. Open maps leave their villagers too vulnerable, and they don’t have a strong navy for naval maps (though in my experience they can be usable on some hybrid maps).
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Organ Guns will lose to Crossbowmen now. The Crossbows will outrange the Organs and can just kite them down using their faster movement speed. Given that Light Cav already destroy them after their recent HP nerf, I’m not sure what their role will be now.
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With discounted Bloodlines on top of that
Withe the upcoming pathing on melee units, I suspect units like Leiciai are going to be truly absurd, so I think the unit will need a nerf, and people will finally realize how stupid the Liao Dao is in Imperial.
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It is good that some of the pros have spoken out against the laming change. Hopefully that gets cut, along with the stupid Organ Gun nerf.
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They already don’t work against monks and mangonels, so there’s no real need to nerf them.
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Haizzz organ gun, since last nerf never seen it in my list civ regular play. Haizzz and how can more nerf it. Need more bonus for they. Organ now really worse hate, I’m disappointed with new change aaaaaaaaa
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You can do that today because 8% is insufficient to compensate for the risk of farming in the open. So if you’re playing as Poles you either take damage from opponent’s attack or spend too much on defense and your castle age gets delayed. Either way you’re behind and Szlacha Privileges comes in too late. But back then with 10% instant food, all of this happened sooner and hence all-in castle age knight spam was possible before opponent’s halb/bracer+ranged units.
It was also due to their stone mining bonus which gave them gold much faster. If at all Poles seem too strong with the 10% folwark in closed maps there are ways to introduce nerfs specific to closed maps. Like removing redemption plus another monk tech for example.
They are not useless “now” , they have been useless ever since keyboard input delay and latency in game were significantly reduced. So about 7-8 yrs now. If you’re a blackforest tg guy it might seem surprising to you but in 1v1s and open map tgs, rams are rarely used. Its mostly trebs or canons in imp and mangonels in castle age.
Balance means civs are competent when matched against each other. Poles with 10% instant food is overpowered vs Vietnamese with 0 eco bonus or Slavs with 10% faster farming and that’s bad balance. Whereas Poles with 10% instant food is quite even against Vietnamese with 100% faster upgrade time or Slavs with 15% faster farming (can extend for 20+ civs but I hope you get the idea). So no, the buff doesn’t throw the balance out of window, it brings it back. Suppose if all the other civs in the game were not buffed then I’d agree with you that its overpowered.
It was the same new is OP mindset but to some extent they were relatively quire strong. Maa and infantry were bad, CA wasn’t usable and 20+ civs didn’t have their military discount or eco benefit they have now or had a worse version of it. So the Poles bonus was relatively better back then.
In general I agree with you but not for berries. Berries is an extremely slow source of food, so longer lasting berries or some extra food from it isn’t that much of a buff.
5 xbows vs 1 organ gun sure but not in higher numbers, they’d still do 1 damage to organ guns. You have to constantly split into several groups and move them around to kill a whole bunch of organ guns. You can say it gives xbow players a chance to buy more time but they don’t counter.
And no light cav don’t destroy them either. Organ guns like other gunpowder uu are a fc castle drop style unit. Once there’s more than 20 organ guns its almost impossible to take them out with light cav. At that stage of the game its much easier to mass wood gold units compared to food units. That’s the reason why Phosphorus builds became popular.
Organ guns have 4 pierce armor, 6 with elite, with no other way to improve it. Xbows have base 5 damage, increased by fletching line (and chemistry), and now will outrange with those techs (which are high-priority techs when using Xbows). With bodkin arrow (the second tech), Xbows deal 3 damage/hit to non-elite organ guns, which means they need 17 shots to kill (less than they need to kill light cavalry after armor upgrades).
Light cavalry also win 20v20 with full castle age upgrades. Given that organ guns require no upgrades in castle age, this means that light cav won’t be a great option in early castle age (with a possible exception for Turks, who with 2 armor upgrades would reduce damage to 1/hit). But organ guns also cost significantly more than light cavalry (though food is more valuable than wood/gold in early castle age). Didn’t check knights, but those are about the same cost as organ guns (and are stronger than light cavalry).
I figure by the time an opponent has 20 organ guns, It’s no longer early castle age and you’ve had time to develop a good counter against them.
Having played a match as Gurjaras (against Poles extreme AI) on bunny Arabia, I think the extra food on berries makes the start easier (though still difficult) - and having 2 spots to build a mill meant that even if my berries were forward, I still had no issues since my sheep were in the chickens mill. And camel scouts feels viable (though still a poor raiding unit) - I only had one stables, but it was great against a scout rush.
I’ll also note that the predator changes seem to be mostly flavor (komodo dragons still aren’t scary against loomed vils, though they are a bit tougher, and the other predators aren’t much different). Dire and rabid wolves may be a different story, but I don’t think they were generic anyways.
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Still not a fan of bloated eco bonuses.
Here’s an example of the result of a busted eco bonus: Bengalis can get a +8 villager lead even in a standard 3 TC boom in the Castle Age, which is ridiculous! Their villagers also take up less pop, and they have all the eco techs (except the meh Stone Shaft Mining), like their eco isn’t already busted.
Here’s some of the original civs and what they were getting:
- Celts get just 15% wood bonus, which is like having 1.5 extra vils per 10 working on wood, way too modest compared to Bengalis’ +8 vils. And Celts even miss Crop Rotation and Two-Man Saw!
- Turks’ 20% faster gold mining is like having +3 vils, but only if you put 15 vils on gold and spend it wisely.
- Mongols get a nice hunt bonus, but after that, no eco bonus.
- Teutons lacking even Light Cav to balance their cheaper farms, meanwhile now we have civs with FU Hussars on top of having super farmers.
Polish Winged Hussars are already a unit that acts like a gold unit while costing no gold. Buffing their farming even further is insanity, when the correct approach should’ve been nerfing all the busted eco bonuses from new civs.
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You make good points.
Only +4 by castle age (unless it’s a multi-TC start). Making additional TCs doesn’t cause extra vils to pop up until you research imperial age (at which point the economy should be developed enough that the extra vils aren’t a game-changer). Bengalis do get a strong late-game economy, but the downside is that they lack military options earlier in the game (and early game is more important than late game). And Bengali trash options are somewhat meh.
With Mongols eco bonus, early game is more important than late game. You use the hunt bonus to gain an early lead (such as a hyper-aggressive scout rush that other civs simply cannot match), and then extend it.
Polish winged hussars die way too quickly to say they act like a gold unit. They are strong, but their spammability is a large part of that (and if gold isn’t a concern, then Polish cavaliers are a stronger unit). Personally, I think magyar huszars are stronger than winged hussars (of both Poles and Lithuanians).
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Power creeps also happened. They won’t be go back to 60% W/R. But will be 56%~ or so. I think removing Crop Rotation is the best option.
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My bad, I meant +10 vils upon reaching Imperial in a standard 3 TC boom.
I agree with the eco power creep. It definitely has happened. I think it’s OK to pop Poles back to +10% from the Folwark just to see how they land - we know that bonus is OP, yes. I’m actually thinking that 9% might actually be the sweet spot there as much as a 9% value sounds dumb. However we have a 9% bonus in the patch, and Hindustanis have a weird number vill discount.
Celts and Bengalis have severe military handicap. Celts don’t get decent ranged units, no gunpowder and their cavalry lacks bloodlines and +4 armor. Bengalis don’t have knights, ca, thumb ring, +4 armor on infantry or gunpowder. Celts need to play siege and Bengalis need to play Elephants, both are very expensive. This is the reason why they get powerful eco benefit.
Turks and Mongols on the other hand get CA and light cav that are solid in castle age and scale really well into imp. If you’re playing limited mobility maps, their fc uu play is also quite powerful. Turks get artillery canons and Mongols get drill siege. Very strong military combination plus good siege..
Its always great eco plus mediocre military or great military with mediocre eco.
Khitans are nerfed and they always lacked bloodlines. Poles lack +4 cav armor. Khmer farms aren’t superior to generic farms after handcart. So its just Slavs and they lack decent ranged units to justify the need for extra resources.
What about the first 40 mins before you can get Lecitich legacy plus Winged hussar.. If Polish hussar play was so great why is their overall winrate bottom-10?
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Perhaps new ecos aren’t too strong, but rather old ecos were too weak and generic making each civ feel similar. Now with more unique ecos like folwark, feitoria, Malian drop off bonus, Khmer garrison in housing, we have a lot more unique ecos rather than just “vil does job X Z% faster”.
Very cool, that there are attack and running animations for the foxes as well. They attack but have 0 attack. Devs could give them 1 attack maybe. They are small after all.
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When this PUP patch actually get added to real game?