Pup patch: Not so many greedy 2. TC anymore?

I will still do double TC Fresh Foodstuff every game. But it might impact pro level.


Beasty said double TC is still meta just delayed; and I believe demuslim said the same thing; at least you can see demuslim STILL doing double TC with his standard civs.

HOWEVER I will say I see Beasty putting his TC more defensively!!? That is an IMPACTFUL change!

HOw did you figure or where did you FIND this formula???


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I see you’re a man of culture :slight_smile:

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They need ti go the nongol route… TCs need cost 900 resources then it becomes jist as impossible to go 2nd TC as it is for mongol. The 50 stone plus 30s isn’t enough to stop thr 2nd Tc meta bc the payoff os still sub 6min and the defense of the TC is strong.

Another option is like someone else had mentioned is to reduce the garrison compacity and TC HP.

Last option is NOT to buff the ram altogether but to buff it toward TCs same way they buffed it vs walls. So instead it taking 1 ram 60s to kill TC make 1 ram take 45s to kill TC which means 2 rams kills in 23s if uncontested.

Here is a quick summary, of what I was reading so far about it.

  • It should require stone to repair them.
  • Less garrison space → Tech to increase it (that idles the TC)
  • Increasing the cost
  • Increasing the build time
  • Reduce HP
  • Decrease the fire rate
  • Add a toggleable ability that can be manually activated. Activated it auto-targets units, if it is on cooldown it behaves like before.
  • Add extra damage while it is building up
  • Reduce the cost of rams
  • Buff rams
  • Give TCs less Torch resistance (-5) to help melee units to destroy it
  • reduce fire range of TCs

I hope they consider our proposals because I don’t notice a big effect on the changes they made

DeMuslim lost this game for not making a second Tc

I still favor any idea that would provide counterplay! Not just some raw stats (Buff X, nerf Y).
Rework or including a new mechanic, that is also “noob” friendly.
I suggested an togglable ability where the TC goes auto target fire and on cd it behaves with the old TC fire mechanic again.
It would auto-active when a ram hits the defensive structure (to be more noob friendly).

Another one would be the TC fires inaccurate, so you could try to dance with a knight around the Tc or let a focused melee unit wiggle left, and right to avoid some of the shots. While it is also very cool, and every AoE 2 player knows it, it is not as easy to pull off efficiently for a casual player.
But yeh this could be also combined and included together with an other mechanical rework.

I would rather see mechanics in place, that provide some entertaining games if executed correctly and is not perfectly balanced on the first attempt of the devs, then to simplify something that could be cool.

Counterplay options, are also easy to get right … Lets take water as an example, they did a great job there, by introducing a classic rock, scissor, paper mechanic. Is it pitch perfect!? Ofc not … it does not have to be perfect to work well. Does it need adjustments? For sure it does, but it will provide an more interesting gaming experience by default.

You would be able to get rewarded by outplaying the static defence mechanics. This could be balanced also through out 30% hit always and so on …

All what a aggressive player needs, is an option to protect the rams and apply damage while under the TC! This time can be limited, but not as much as it is now!
The time window for an attack is and always was there, it is big enough …

This game shows exactly why 2 TC is meta and hard to apply pressure.

And now a video 5 month ago …

For me a mix of both worlds would be great to see … I want to see 2 TC still viable as an opening strat in feudal but i also want a fair chance to punish it.


Sadly the devs tend to oversimplify things for us immortals too much :smiley: .
Just some examples, Arrow homing missiles (i thought a lazy oversight when i first started playing the game at release), but everyone that saw arrow ships, missing its arrows shows it is intentional. There was a ship, that got reduced damage when it got hit in front (was a cool “bug”, that could have been also this, it is not a bug its a feature thing, with some notification “That it has different armor stats from the front side” and rebalanced slightly). They decided to just fix it … Im always for simplifying things if needed, the macro game is becoming continuously easier to play, mostly thanks to better hotkeys and it is great, no one likes to press more buttons than needed to get the same task done … But when it comes to gameplay mechanics, they on purpose simplify them to a degree, that mainly stats clash on each other

They are doing a good job and most things they reworked or did are good.
Especially with the Malians and the water rework, they showed they really want to deliver an exciting gaming experience. It feels just inconsistent like they are not all on one page and still experimenting.

I changed my review (that was btw the 3. most voted negative review since release) to positive …
The game became quite balanced, but it is still lacking diversity … not enough landmarks or techs are viable, it could be great, not just “good”. But that’s another topic

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I find it interesting, that most experienced, what we had 5 month ago and now. But everyone suggests to keep it and just change some stats. Buff X, Nerf Y :smiley:

the siege nerf changed the meta, before you couldn’t stay behind without having mangonels that had a lot of hp and more area of ​​damage

I agree, I am not interested in making double Tc unfeasible, because double production speeds up the game, but that strategy must have a risk and not a Meta that favors the defender

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True u gained so much military advantage through castle age. This also shows how broken they were before. Im glad they reworked the siege completely and buffed the horsemen as a effective counter.

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Just out of sheer curiosity, I counted the TC killed a total of 21 Javelin Thrower / Donso during the 4 minutes long push :slight_smile: (~2200 resources).
Malians vs Mongol TC

Keep in mind, javelin throwers with +1 have 4-piercing armor.
He should have tried to get use out of it by parking them as closest to the TC. This would have been a ~2,5 times better unit to tank the TC fire if u compare cost and survival ability. But IMO the outcome would have been the same.

This was single TC, blacksmith + techs(piercing armor and damage, siege engineers), vs double TC, castle age at the 12 min mark! There was no better timing also to strike for the Malian player, yeh the 2. TC already paid off at that time, but castle age a minute after it payed off!? not even close …

Totally agree …
From what I read and heard so far the community is mostly on one page here, just the attempts are different.
The devs got quite a lot of input already from everyone discussing it. It is up to the devs now :slight_smile:

listen to his analysis

I think it’s time to consider removing the siege engineering requirement, plus other proposals we’ve made.

Here I develop the idea considering the new cost of the ram

If i would have watched this game non casted as an replay, i would have also predicted the outcome after the ~7 min mark, when the eco was splitted with cattles and no sign of an all in push and no additional TC … When he started to build his 1. ram, at 10 min, there it was already over :smiley:
You just continue to watch, even tho u know what is gonna happened from now on

They got feedback from all kinds of sources now, that this is something the community likes to be changed. It reminds me a bit of the Horseman (Worsemen) topic :smiley:

I’m sure we will see a patch after the tournament. Before the big tourney would be risky and could throw over the meta.

Before TC auto target, i saw not a problem in it, that an aggressive player has to pre-invest and also “tells” the defending one, im going for a heavy feudal push. It was warning you that your opponent is investing into feudal and prob want to rush you.
But that was at a time when i was scared if i can hold :smiley:

If they really want to nerf town centers without touching the mechanics of it, then honestly idk, there are a bunch of options that would do the job to pick the best one of all of them … Prob would be a mix of some of them. In the best case scenario, we don’t “lose” something in return and it also addresses keeps directly with it.

I will wait now what they gonna do about it and come back on this topic after they addressed it.

I don’t think that Drongo video is a good example of the multi-TC meta being too strong still. The Malian player just wasn’t equal to DeMuslim in his macro and resource use. He was fighting 1 TC vs 3 TC in feudal and yet did not have much of a stronger military force - he was floating 900 gold for some reason during his push - if all those resources had been put into feudal army instead, the outcome could’ve been different. He didn’t even have a chance to attack a TC - just a Rus tower.


Yet these are the only two that actually directly and consistently impact the TC meta

Because many times it isn’t actually the TC that doesn’t go down that’s the problem. It’s how quickly the investment pays back, and how quickly the eco grows, meaning the opponent has such a small window to punish the boom

That’s why I think additional TCs need longer training times on Vils. Regardless of any other buffs to aggression (like siege damage or better rams)

As an example: Chinese player drops 2nd TC very close to main, with Barbican, their defensive capabilities like that are so much higher than another civ dropping an exposed TC on a boar, it becomes almost irrelevant if there’s an hp nerf

Double production speeds up the game, I don’t want a slow game either