For everyone that is interested in where the numbers are coming from.
Interesting to see is, that it takes quite some time until the production of the villagers pays for itself.
Also interesting is, that you are most behind at around the ~100 second mark, after you build the TC.
I will make it public, when i have time, so everyone can see and play around with dif civ boni and gather speeds.
If you see any mistake, let me know 
If TCs do end up needing further nerfs, then maybe they should add a food and/or gold cost to them.
So to increase its total cost.
Imo what the devs need to deliver:
1.) Open up a Time Window to deny / delay it
2.) Grant players options to punish it
3.) single TC → fast castle, should be also viable
There is a way to balance that but it might be too harsh all of the towncenters will have less range except landmark towncenter and they will have a increase range tech at castle age
I want the TCs also to be useful and be able to protect us.
If u reduce it by 2 tiles, longbows outrange the TC, IDK if that would be nice to see.
Towers would need then also reduced range, or u could tower the TC more effectively.
Cutting someone off resources would become also very efficient.
In some matchups and unit comps, the TC would become very inefficient to protect early aggression.
But yeah that would also help, personally not the best choice, if it just gets reduced slightly, it would help overall.
Another idea, would be it does less damage on big range, everything that is in 4+ tiles, get less damage (MB -1 or -2) and everything that is 4 and below, gets current damage. That would help also to protect the rams and unit comps with range units would become stronger under the TC. But yeh weird mechanic overall and performs inconsistently
There was this bigger rock, scissor, paper thing in place
How it was before in feudal
TC > units > villager > rams > TC.
And now:
TC > units > villager > rams … “Am I not a threat to you? And why the hell I’m alone …”
What bothers me also since launch is:
A TC is strong dark / feudal age and underwhelming in the castle age and above.
When u have ur first M@A or Knights, they have a much better cost / survive ratio.
Standard TC Garrisoned 10 villager
M@A non-upgraded has 4/4 armor, TC no upgrades 6 dmg / garrisoned unit + 8 TC.
A single M@A survives 15 seconds (8 resources / second surviving) … if 10 villagers are idling, assuming u have some eco upgrades and gather with 45/min, u lost over 112 resources (+ walk idle time) to 120 which the M@A cost.
If M@As have the armor advantage they can survive ~27 seconds (~4,5 resources / second surviving). Now a single M@A does more eco damage to the defending player, just by making the TC idle until it dies …
Compare it to standard feudal age units:
Spearmen die after 5 seconds (in best case scenario the first volley is on cd and tc does overdamage) = (16 resources / second surviving)
Spearman could also die in ~2,5 seconds if he just walks in
Horsemen = (16 resources / second surviving)
Archer = (32 resources / second surviving) (can be also 3,8 seconds in best caste scenario) (22 resources / second surviving)
Right now I’m happy that this is the case, it let us flood the enemy’s base with a stream of units and give us a win condition in AGE 3 … What I dislike about it, is that armored units in ur base overperform if u compare them to other popular unit compositions
The problems that u face in feudal age and TCs, gets replaced in castle age with keeps 
i know thats why i said its a harsh choice the other choice is giving rams more health or when units garrisoned inside rams will hit faster like in aoe2 for every unit it attack speed will increase %1-2 for example but this could destroy the advantage of TC totally
this is a must change they must needed to repaired with wood and stone it was like that in aoe2 too
… thumbs up (20 characters)
I also liked the mechanic, i know some people dont like it, because it gained movement speed.
Right now it is a bit clunky to get them inside and outside and the TC instantly fires on them when they jump out. In AoE 2 i used it quite often to get them into position or protect them from archer fire in some cases.
I liked also the surprise effect when someone destroys the ram or I drop them out.
If the TC is undefended just the villagers are there, you could use it to avoid some volleys of the TC, but overall u don’t gain much out of it, it is micro intensive and has a clunky delay.
There is also no surprise factor since u see the amount garrisoned inside the ram.
I would also like to see there a benefit of having the units inside of the ram, just something that let me consider it to put them inside …
towncenters except landmark towncenter can have a garrison but no attack to gain attack you need to research something smiliar like the outpost improvement and they will cost wood and stone to repair how is that?
while me and @Warzor1006 talking we realised town center is a castle age building in the games before and it didnt caused any problem so maybe it should be like that in aoe4 too it makes super sense so either to compete with tc everybody is going to build them or nobody is gonna build them until age 3
Sorry mb i was not clear, u misunderstood me.
Me: “Yeh TCs also were mainly available in castle age. You could even outrun them with a scout, just dance in TC range and arrows miss. The games are too different to be compared exactly”
I did not said that this could be the solution
I still favor this:
from THAT list those were the only 2
none of this means anything if you cant/dont attack the opponent fast enough, i already pointed out a defensive case like china, this includes many other choke pooint or stone wall scenarios
so even if it ends up resolving the meta at the higher elos, it will mean nothing for the majority of the playerbase, until extra TCs are no longer such a financial gain. that needs to change, regardless of every other change, the financial gain is simply too great in too many cases
people have already explain how the ram nerfs might have even been unnecessary and we had ram rush games purely because players hadnt figured out how to multi TC yet, that even in those cases with the easy ram rush, multi TC was still too good due to the financial gain
terrible idea. literally the worst thing they can add
the reason TC fire had to change, was because it was nonsensical AF. there are 100s of ways of changing the meta, dont make it so you lose simply due to TCs acting like morons.
anything can argue anything can make the game longer. but being able to spam masses of armies, generally makes the game slower, because both players can spam equally. the reason why aoe2 is actually a faster game in real time, is because punishing an eco is so much more effective, you dont need to destroy their TCs, you simply need to idle their eco enough and it becomes impossible to make a comeback
conversely idling, and vil loses are not only harder in aoe4, but mean much less
Thats why I disagree … A mechanical rework is another one for me.
Like i said, even if u build the TC and dont get anything out of it, by not queuing up any villagers … Good luck killing it in feudal and getting out ahead of it.
I was not suggesting to include the old fire mechanic again!
It clearly says lets compare it … to illustrate smth …
Months after the release, greedy double TC as abba was always meta, nothing to figure there out there, it was always there ~5:00 min 2. TC, except vs french. But I know that if the opponent rushes me it will be tough! Now I can drink coffee while defending it
This is just the case because the defensive structures are a pain in the … they slow it down to a degree that it grants the defensive player enough time to get into this stage of the game, where both have their desired villager maximum and can start spamming
There I agree, while i would not reduce it just to it alone
There are many RTS on the market, including AoE 2, wc3, starcraft where u don’t get an auto-target defensive structure, that ignores its counter … all of them are just nonsensical AF. It is so ridiculous that this was even implemented at the release of AoE 4 … Glad the devs finally found an answer to this micro-intensive mess of a defense …
I play mainly Abba, so I’m on the defending side here. The current meta favors a civ I play the most and i could care less. It is just that i also cant punish 3. TC, when i go for 2 … And all games get dragged out … The other reason that I play Abba currently a lot is, that more offensive-oriented civs are unattractive for me to play, thanks to the current meta. I don’t even want to try something out, that has such a big disadvantage
This. Also I really do not get why people keep bringing up something being nonsensical or not as an actual argument. There’s so many things that are nonsensical and it’s perfectly fine. This is a computer game after all and game play >>>> reality.
People really need to understand that this game at its current state is highly repetitive. And since pretty much everything, even the most fun things, in life become boring after a while, playing this game will become boring too sooner or later. And with that multiple TC meta im very very certain that the overall player count will drop further since it prevents many strategical decisions from being considered hence being highly repetitive.
the fun is in the risk, if you are French your risk is the lancers, you simply have to give risk to the TC’s strategy, favoring the attacker
That’s why we have “continuous development” today. They will balance the game and change stuff from time to time, and then the meta is also changing. There is a reason why people play a game in the long term.
To be honest, aoe2 even if it’s DE or not, is an old game. Still played by thousands.
Yeh, it is very repetitive and saying smth is nonsensical in a video game is not fitting, when it comes to gameplay.
I can understand that no one likes to see a laser sword, but when it comes to gameplay … come on …
It is sad to see, that 1 year after release I’m still that restricted in what is viable to play.
They are trying and overall slowly the game moves in the right direction, it feels like 1.5 step forward and 1 backward tho.
They want to support a more casual way to play, it is a design choice, u see it across the board. But if u go this route, then u have to deliver strategy diversity and reward strategic decisions in return!
I can contribute less through out micro, is it rushing, raiding, dodging projectiles, using abilities in the right moment, stances, formations, to be careful about my own siege (friendly fire) that can really turn the fight in even numbers, or to celebrate a comeback.
Bottom line: They don’t want to balance the game through mechanics, they go for default counters and numbers. Y > Z and u need X amount of Y to beat Z.
It is hard to really get a comeback and it favors an eco approach, besides the strong defensive structures.
Personally less entertaining to play and watch.
Town centers need to be limited to 1 for each age
All this is are coming with new patch no?
It’s longer to get up a TC so it’s easier punish with a rush.
And it now takes longer time to pay off, because both build time and cost increase so both ram all-in and going FC into relics is now viable.
This is in theory of course, if these number adjustments are enough to cause a meta change or not we will see in time.
