PUP Revolt changes discussion

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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This is just a list of my thoughts and questions on Revolts and especially their changes in the Public Update Preview.

Before I get into my thoughts on each one specifically, I want to preface this with my idea of what a revolt should: gives some kind of immediate benefit militarily or economically, but due to missing most age 5 economic and military upgrades, it falls off in the very late stages of the game. You may disagree with this and I’m perfectly fine with that, but that’s just how I see them. So with that in mind here we go…

ARGENTINA: Like many of the changes and new cards; INF 7 lancers, 3 Lil Bombards, Criollos (22 guard consolute musketeers), San Martin, INF 3 Mortars, flying batteries, Trattoria, Buenos Aires. I believe that’s the whole list. But I have some questions/suggestions about some of them and even Grenedaros as a unit.
Lil Bombards: I believe this is supposed to be a reference to Italian immigration, the same as Trattorias and Buenos Aires. While the latter 2 are fun nods to Italian influence, the Lil Bombards just seem a bit much, as the presence of large bombards (lol), seems like they would have made some splash in Argentine history, but as far as I can find they didn’t exist. I’m fine with this card if they did, but I just can’t find it, so if they didn’t I probably would remove them, same with the Elmetti.
Flying battery: I believe the purpose of the flying battery card is probably mainly to give you another reason to use Argentia’s mortars, but I find this strange as flying battery refers to horse-drawn artillery, So that feels very weird.
Criollos: feels like a slightly weird application of what I understand the word to mean, but I’m ultimately fine with it enabling strong Spanish musketeers, with a couple of suggestions–raise the food cost to 2000, lower the number to 10, and make them imp. Either that or make you be able to upgrade them to imp, also please replace the normal musketeer in the fort cause it’s weird having two. Being able to train imp extra strong musketeers from only your forts would be pretty fun imo, without making the revolt too strong in 1v1 situations.
Grenedaros: This unit is still very Very strong, specifically when paired with gauchos, there really is no counter due to them having no negative multipliers with their ranged siege attack. My fix? Make them more like what they actually were elite cavalry, yes, they did have guns, but I think they should be based on how they fought at the Battle of San Lorenzo. They would be an expensive two-pop cavalry with slightly above average hp and charged lance attack, with good standard melee to follow up. They could be made trainable only from forts (tho not too slowly), so as to compete with Criollo production as well. I know the developers have a thing for anything with “grenad” being a grenade-throwing unit, but I think this could be a good step towards some more historical accuracy and pretty fun.

BRAZIL: With the edition of Feitorias, Rio De Janeiro (which is bugged), and Amazonia it seems like you’ll be able to have a pretty good economy with Brazil. And the extra explorer capital upgrades is a nice focus. The wildlife card is bugged showing the number 20 while only shipping ten capys (and jags?). I am quite happy with the Brazilian imports card (although it is also bugged) and I find the Bonificieo card interesting (also bugged)
INF Cassadors is a nice add, although it will only be useful for ports, and the inf soldado add is also pretty cool, the developers even gave them different voice lines which show thoughtfulness. Both of these cards are bugged not being purple, but I do quite like them. This is in no way necessary but, if you’re going to give them special voice lines and even an Imperial-age look, I think it might be cool if they were trainable from forts, as putting all this work into shipping 6 soldados just feels like a loss.
I don’t really like the Akan shipment, I know there were Africans brought over from Africa but, unless I’m missing something, I don’t think they came over armed with “old muskets” (I have a bit of this same problem with the Haiti revolt). Plus, this shipment is literally EVERYWHERE (it feels like).
I like Independence Guards, but wish they would replace Ruyters for Dutch.

PERU: Waiting for some information before posting.

HUNGARY: I love the 15 Magyar Hussar shipment, but suggest the name be changed simply to “Michael Kovats de Fabricz” as, unlike Pulaski, he didn’t really have a Legion named after him. With the changing of this name you could also add him as a sort of hero unit like San Martin. He could probably replace about 4 of the Hussars in the shipment, and you could make him about 3 strong, to balance things out. Also, “Georgian Hussars” overwrites the Magyar Hussars’ skin, even though it has to be sent before. It is also the only way to get the Guard upgrade for them, whereas Ottomans gets it automatically when shipping them. For the Maltese, it doesn’t replace the Order Hussars in the fort, and they don’t get the guard upgrade either.
The inf 6 grens is a good addition.

ROMANIA: Dunabian Principalities is a fun card, but I would suggest enabling access some kind of imp or imp-like upgrade, as right now its really not worth using. Especially since right now you have to upgrade them to guard, meaning you must–Revolt, ship this card, just to have access to veteran units which you must upgrade yourself.
Rosier Dragoons: I don’t know why Rosier Dragoons lose hp and gain attack and speed, Hussars of Death is a straight improvement, Magyar Hussars are a straight improvement, and Gran Columbia can get Imp upgrades, so why does this unit have to lose stats to gain stats?
Wallachian Horse Archer: Same problem as Rosier Dragoons but honestly worse. Why do I have to lose 33% hp, just to get Imp DPS and some speed? Hussars of Death get MORE than IMP dps but lose nothing at all, and they don’t take a shipment. I really just don’t get it. At least give them the Ottoman firing animation boost or range increase (for Russians).

CANADA: Fun changes, but Native Warriors Conscription makes things WAY too cheap when paired with “Native Warriors”. Like, Natives costing 60 res total cheap–it’s just a bit much (or little). There are 2 Fencible shipments but I assume that’s a bug, but the 16 range you can get honestly isn’t a bad add imo (the price is LOL).
Inf 12 skirms is a good addition, although not at all helpful for the British.
Inf 4 War Canoes is good. But the icon is bugged.
Quebec is a good card. But the icon is bugged
I like the militia-focused design, very different.
Hunting-focused design is also good.
Lenape is a good shipment but I just don’t like using them, the war cry animation is way too long.
I really like Canadian Loyalists as a card for this revolt, and for Hauda, but I think they could use something special so they aren’t just generic age 4 goons.

Haiti: People hate on the Pirate theme but honestly I don’t mind it–the island of Tortuga was a pirate hotspot and I personally just enjoy it. The developers have added more to do with the actual slave revolution, but some of the choices are weird…
There weren’t a bunch of Akans fighting in the revolution, the slave did not go back to their “African Roots” and started throwing spears again. The Pickets are fine but Yoruba Legionaries? Akans armed with “old muskets”? The Dahomys are actually good as some of them were hired, but these other choices just seem completely fictional.

USA: Washington Grenadiers and normal grens are separated in the fort, which is confusing.

SOUTH AFRICA: Changes were good.

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I quite liked the changes implemented in this PUP, with the big exception of Peru. 19th century Peru had very little to do with the ancient Inca empire. It would be a much more accurate representation if instead of so many Inca elements the devs added some stuff from modern civilizations, for example:

-A card that delivers Chinacos with the name “Montoneros”
-A card that delivers Cruzob Infantry with the name “Breñeros”
-That groups of Insurgentes, Montoneros and Breñeros can be requested from the Cathedral, in a similar way to the shipments of units from the Basilica (Consider that Bolívar can receive shipments, so shipments from the Cathedral would arrive directly where he is)
-etc.

At least I really liked the card that ships 1 Cathedral, I think it’s a good addition.

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Yeah, I have someone (who is Peruvian) who’s gonna send me a list of its problems and what needs changing. But that might be it.

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I felt that way about the native african units being in the haitian revolution as well until I saw a video where a man from Ghana and someone from a Maroon band in South America were able to both able to speak Twi and have it be mutually understandable enough to where they could hold a conversation. It was supressed and jumbled together a bit but I think a lot more of African people’s culture endured then people give credit for. Maybe it doesn’t make perfect sense for Ashante royal guards and Yoruba warrior nobles to be hanging around colonial Haiti in full regalia but thematically I think it’s pretty great. Just like it’s okay for Mayans you employ as the Mexicans to fight with atl atls and hide shields because the historical reference is to the Mayan people that were signifigant to Mexican history and they are represented here by an existing Mayan unit in the game. Throwing spears is pretty anachronistic for 18th century Haiti but considering you can also field longbows or crossboss as the Haitians I don’t see that as a major issue.

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Two dudes speaking the same (almost) language and a revolt fielding armies of units that were never there seem like very different things.
I’m not sure which Mayans you’re talking about. With the Mayan revolution pretty much your whole army is gunpowder units, yes you can get some dudes throwing spears, but those dudes had at least been there in the past.
Also they could even have some Polish cards but for some reason there’s no representation of that real thing.

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They have a card to ship maya javineers in age 4 and a feederal card that gives a couple for each hacienda in age 2. There’s also a difference between historical references that are communicated though real world logic and references that are communicated through the logic of the game. US chinese immigrants card helps build trading posts since the railroads in america were built on the back of chinese migrant labor. The french immigrants card on the other hand makes villagers tougher not because refugees from France introduced performance enhancers to the young nation but because the French in AOE3 have tough villagers and so having a French influence translates to having a French bonus based on the logic of the game. A lot of Haitians come from these ethnic groups so they recieve the bonuses that these ethnic groups have within the game (in this case techs and units). That’s just how I see it anyway. I also think it’d be a diservice to have a Haiti that has nothing to thematically tie it to African civs or natives.

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I guess “Haiti” is more of a catch-all caribean revolt.
Many of the jamaican maroons were akan soldiers that got captured in conflicts with neighboring african countries… after breaking free they used all the weapons they could get their hands on, so using spears and old muskets doesnt seem far off. I dont know if there were many akans in haiti though.

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I dislike it purely because of your first paragraph.

It wants to be a Pirate theme and it wants to be a Haiti theme. Developers need to choose one

Haiti
An actual slave revolution leading to the post-French Haiti (even a brief dalliance as’Empire of Haiti’). This is a great, historic and realistic revolution choice. A black Euro-style rev civ is a fantastic thing to pursue - it’s highlighting the actual result of the rebellion and it’s representive of a black majority civ in the Caribbean.

‘Pirate’ Haiti
Just a disclaimer, I love pirates and am well-read with proper sea rover sources so will be a total geek on this.
First of all, French Buccaneers (which they were refered to Flibustiers as well as their Boucanier predecessors) settled parts of Western Hispanolia and had nothing to do with the Haiti that emerge out of rebellion centuries later. Their stronghold was Tortuga though this shifted onto Petit Goave on the mainland eventually. The Buccaneering age limped along to the early 18th century though the French relied on these commissioned sailors for longer than the British due to their Navy not having the same strength in the Americas. These 17th century Flibustiers (an no, Flibustiers/Buccaneers were not true completely criminal pirates - they were almost all commissioned) had zero to do with 19th century, modern Haiti.

Whilst a proper pirate rev would be great, it’s better to focus on a completely fleshed-out Haitian roster of black forces such as musketeers as well as Polish Legion shipments (i.e. some reskinned infantry and cav with the Winged Hussar voice), with removal of everything pirate (the black Haitians weren’t pirates!) except Privateers. If you want a French pirate civ rev, call it Brethren of the Coast / frères de la côte and go Flibustier-mad. Devs just need to pick one track!

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I’ve wrote my thoughts about the new peruvian revolt here: About the new Peruvian Revolt - Age of Empires III: DE / III - Discussion - Age of Empires Forum

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If you are interested in Argentina being more historically correct, I propose the following.

Saint Martin’s horse grenadiers are historically an equivalent to Napoleon’s French cuirassier, I suppose in-game they could be something similar to the Elmetti, costing 3 population and 500 food. (They use spears and this will help all civilizations use the Caballeros card)

The new Argentine grenadier would consume a lot of food, to compensate for this change, I would add a new card that allows gauchos and villagers to collect livestock 300% faster, just like the British Fulling Mills card, but affecting both units and not just the villager.

In addition to the above, Argentina could have a card that allows it to build haciendas specialized in livestock, along with the Barbacoa card to automate food collection a little.

Regarding San Martin, I’m glad they added it to the game, but I think it’s missing things. for example, I think San Martin should increase the speed of nearby cavalry units, it should have the Saber Strike and Oberhau Attack skills plus it should also be able to receive military shipments.

I would change the criollos card for something more historically correct such as the patrician regiments, they could be units that replace and improve the revolutionary as well as allowing us to train them in barracks, fortresses and galleons in exchange for costing a little more food, perhaps 150 or 200. (Maybe imperial level)

I would also love for the developers to add the Guemes Infernals, especially since they were instrumental in Argentina’s independence, they could be similar to the Mounted Rifleman, they could cost 2 population and 250 food. (They would have the lasso as a ranged attack)

I would replace the Lil Bombards card with a card that lowered the coin cost of the cannons by 50% that way the Argentinian Lombards could be more useful. (Artisanal cannons)

PS: I like the trattoria card, it’s a shame that if we use it we lose the ability to build bars with the villagers. (I assume it’s a bug)

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Y’all all bring up good points, so I hope the devs see this.

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The Cassadors shipped to either Dutch or Portuguese are actually Guard status already and are unaffected by prior upgrades and Portuguese (and most Dutch) cards. One weird thing is that the Portuguese version have a base +10% hp/atk over the Dutch version as if they’re Royal Guard, but other than that they’re the same.

One of the Peruvian cards is “Manco Inca”, who was an Incan revolutionary leader in the mid-1500s. Therefore the in-game Peru isn’t exclusively a reference to the same state that was founded in the 1800s. This is consistent with the dev’s approach to many revolutions at this point, such as Finland (which didn’t exist independently until the 1900s) having the “Cudgel War” card (reference to a 1500s peasant uprising against Sweden) and the “Grand Duchy of Finland” card (reference to a Russian state founded in Finland in 1807). In my opinion, this isn’t a problem.

The Mayans the Mexicans have access to (besides the Yucatecan/Mayan revolutions) are from the Federal card “Tzotzil Uprising” which is a direct reference to a rebellion from 1712. Though firearms were widely adopted by then, the Mayans’ access to them in the Chiapas region was limited. There have been records from the late 1600s indicating the presence of Mayan “musketeers” fighting alongside Spanish troops, and supposedly the Tzotzil uprising’s forces were organized similarly to colonial ranks but from what I can tell the atlatl may have indeed been used during the uprising. EDIT: Forgot about the 24 Mayan allies card age 4, that one’s probably supposed to be another pre-independence reference like the Leather Soldiers card.

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Huh, that’s interesting.

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Maybe for someone who doesn’t know the History of Peru the problem is not so obvious, but what they did with the Peruvian revolution is equivalent to that in the previous update the devs had added many cards of the Haudenosaunee and Lakota for the revolution of the USA. Instead what the devs did was add cards that more accurately reflect the history of the United States.

That they have made the same mistake with other revolutions does not solve the problem.

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I doubt people would complain if the USA revolution had some references to King Philip’s War or the New England Confederation even though it happened a long time before the Revolution. Though you make a good point that they decided not to and people are happy with that decision and the unified direction of the USA revolt.