Though the Kievan Rus converted under Vladimir of Kiev into Orthodox Christianity so it makes sense in a way.
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It makes sense, but it would make more sense if it was a Byzantine UT.
This game makes historical references with the civs, not historical accuracy, or representations of any one kingdom.
Giving a Sinhalese civ a Bodhisattva UT, would be very much in line with how civs are designed in AoE2, since they did have a Anuradhapura kingdom period, that did have Bodhisattvas.
Seljuks originate outside of Anatolia, and most of their empire was outside of Anatolia. Itās not a one-to-one thing where the Seljuks are Castle Age and the Ottomans are Imperial (Janissaries and Sipahi tech are available from castle age). Youāre right though, the Turks civ would also cover them, as well as any other Turkish faction. Thatās the point I was making with Slavs. It isnāt a perfect representation, but Poles are indeed Slavic, just like Seljuks, Ottomans, and Rum Sultanate are all Turkish.
Itās strage that they kept the name, but the word and tactics did indeed originate from the Moors (Zenata > Jinete > Genitour), and you canāt say a light skirmishing cavalry is unfitting for the Berber Civ.
I think the Forgotten Empires team likes to bring in units and ideas that Ensemble Studios mentioned or started, but were never able to complete (genitour has been in the scenario editor since AoC)
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Not at all. Jinete comes from Zagaia, which is an Iberian native word, and so are the tactics.
Genitours were part of Iberian warfare before the Romans moved in, which is centuries before the Moors.
The Moors never had Genitours, since the ritual to join the Genitours, was to hunt a Boar and eat it, which immediately violates islamic principles.
A Light Javelin Skirmish Cavalry is unfitting for the Berbers, since Berber Mounted Skirmishers used bows, like in the rest of the islamic world.
The Bow, however, was not very popular in Iberia before the Romans moved, and our Light Cavalry used Javelins instead (Infantry also used Javelins and Slings). It was part of Iberian Warfare long befoire the word āMoorā even existed.
Etymology[edit]
The word Jinete (of Berber zenata ) designates, in Castilian and the ProvenƧal dialect of Occitan language, those who show great skill and riding especially if this relates to their work. In Portuguese, it is spelled ginete . The term jennet for a small Spanish horse has the same source.
Medieval Hispanic light cavalry[edit]
As a military term, jinete (also spelled ginete or genitour ) means a Spanish light horseman armed with a javelin, sword and a shield, a troop type developed in the early Middle Ages in response to the massed light cavalry of the Moors.[1] Often fielded in significant numbers by the Spanish, and at times the most numerous of the Spanish mounted troops, they played an important role in Spanish mounted warfare throughout the Reconquista until the sixteenth century. They were to serve successfully in the Italian Wars under Gonzalo de CĆ³rdoba and RamĆ³n de Cardona.
Unfortunately, your point about light javelin skirmisher cavalry being unfit for the Berbers is completely wrong. I think you are forgetting the most famous javelin cavalry all timeā¦ The Numidian/Mauretanian cavalry of Hannibal and then the Romans. The javelin skirmisher cavalry tradition was always strong amongst the Berbersā¦
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Even if this is true, Genitours refers only to Iberian Christian Light Cavalry, not Berbers.
Even the Wiki says the fought the Berbers, and as a portuguese man myself, I can tell you that no moorish rider was ever called a Ginete.
It is obviously an ethnic term, taht only applies to the natives.
That is like saying Spanish Jaguar Warrior, just because the Spanish conquered Mexico.
The designers seemed to have used the name to refer to the type of fighting - light cavalry skirmisher, maybe not necessary the historical jinete, and they wanted to reflect the Berber cavalry heritage. Anyhow, ally with a Berber player and you can get Jinetes.
The wiki you linked says that the etymology connects to the Berber word, and that they were āa troop type developed in the early Middle Ages in response to the massed light cavalry of the Moors.ā So directly responding to similar tactics already used by the Moors.
But if your objection is just to the word itself, thatās fair - I think they just named it that as a nod to the unused Iberian UU from AoC. Anyway like the other person said, a unit like this one fits the Berbers quite well.
Instead of posting civ ideas, Iāll post some boni ideas instead to change a bit. This are those which would feel the most different from what we have now:
- Villager costing another ressource than food (Gold or Wood) (might be too radical)
- Certain upgrades being cheaper
- Trash camel from stables
- Castle Age Chevalier (might be too strong)
- Free Archer upgrades
- Free Eagle Warrior upgrades
- Mobile drop-off sites
- Stronger castles
- Smaller Farms
- Regenerating buildings
- Improved versions of economic upgrades (Farm upgrades give double the food to farms,ā¦)
- Regenerating unit lines (might be too strong)
- Merged armour upgrades
- Free armour upgrades
- Free archer range upgrades
- Ressource trickle
- Free stone mining upgrades
- Better but more expensive villagers
- Villager costing less pop space
- Free villagers upon Age up from Town center
- Getting ressources from completing certain buildings (+10 food from each farm)
- Faster working drop-off sites
- Civ with access to unique units from other civs (like Mercenaries)
- Blacksmith technologies costing less food
- Housing from economic buildings
- Cheaper houses
- Faster projectiles
- Better villagers overall (needs to be quite small)
- Starting with an additional scout unit which canāt be used for rushes
- Free siege upgrades (only one type of course)
- Discount on Barrack upgrades
- Free Heavy Cav archer
- Free War Galley upgrade
- Food discount on all units
- Range for villagers
- Merging certain buildings together (archery range with stable,ā¦) (too radical maybe)
- Military buildings with attack when garrisoned with military units. (risks being overpowered)
ā¦
Variants of already present boni which would still feel unique
- Stronger but more restricted versions of the Mayan bonus (e.g. 40% more Gold)
- Variants on the Ethiopian bonus (wood and stone instead of food and gold)
- Chinese Team bonus as civ bonus but stronger (more food for farms)
- More restricted but better versions of the Inca and Malian bonus (cheaper Towers, cheaper Economic buildings, cheaper military buildings) (might feel similar to what we already have)
ā¦
Tech tree combinations which havenāt been tried out yet:
- Eagle Warrior-Cav civ
- Gunpowder-Eagle Warrior civ
- Camel-Elephant civ
- Steppe Lancer-Elephant civ
- Civ without cav and Elite Eagle warrior access
- Civ without Capped Rams
- Civ with access to Battle Elephants but not the Elite upgrade
- Civ with access to Steppe Lancer but not the Elite upgrade
ā¦
Generic unit ideas
- Catapult ship (would work as trebuchet on water, worse than Cannon galleon)
- Canoe (Naval unit for American civs)
- Arquebusier (upgraded version of Hand cannoneer (maybe as a Team bonus))
- Regional archer unit
- Regional siege unit
- Imperial upgrade to various other generic unit lines like Scorpions
ā¦
UU ideas which havenāt been tried out yet:
- Trash monk
- Monks from castles in general
- Melee Camel unit from Castles
- Trash ranged unit from castles
- Flamethrowers
- Some kind of Grenadier unit (might not be fitting for the time line though)
- Trash siege unit
- Heavy Pikeman
- Heavy Cav Archer
- War Dogs
- Tanky but slow Archer
- Non-convertable (add unit type here)
- Regenerating cav
- Regenerating archer
- Better Eagle warriors from Castle
- Anti-cav skirmisher
- Heavy Paladin unit which would be expensive and slow but even better than a Teutonic one
- Siege archer (even more specialized but stronger than Mayan or Saracen ones)
ā¦
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They already had Hussar + HCA + Cavalier + Heavy Camel + Camel Archer, to represent a Cavalry tradition.
They gave them Genitours because they just want Genitours in game, and both the Portuguese and the Spanish already had 2 UUs. there is no bigger reason than that.
I am not against it, because this is what the game ALWAYS did to most civs, and the gameplay is great because of it.
It is, however, a great point to dismiss claims for complete historical accuracy.
Scout line.
Keshik.
These 2 could be good ideas, but hard to balance, since you can get a lot of value from Archers and Eagles.
Maybe if it was an economic UU. Could be interesting for a North American Regional Unit.
Many civs have this theme. Celt Strongholds, Byzantines +HP, Teutons Crenelationsā¦
Might make it too hard to raid, which is why I think it was never implemented.
This is funny.
Berber Camels.
Could work.
Is missing, but maybe that is because devs do not want to ovr-encourage Castle drops.
Slavery would be a decent UT, but I do not know if Microsoft would have the guts to do it.
All reasonable.
Cumans, Berbers and Italians already do this to their Allies. Vietnamese do a similar thing with Imp Skirms.
Incas Llama.
I could see some civs with one or 2 of these.
They would need serious drawbacks.
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We have this one, and people hate it. The Indian Elephant Archer.
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We donāt have yet An heavily melee armored foot archer, an Archer that ignores pierce armor, An Anti UU archer, A Blowgunner (NO arambai), A mounted Huskarl, A regenerating cavalry unit, the list go and goā¦
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Iāve meant Trash camel unit. Wrote this text a bit late.
Not Keshik. Iāve meant having access to the Chevalier upgrade in Castle Age instead.
Castles with more hitpoints (better than Byzantines)
Not for infantry, cavalry or archers.
Itās really weak actually (worse than Korean bonus). Thatās why it was probably not implemented specifically yet.
Forget implementing this mechanic under this name.
Iāve seen a mod which had Burgundians as a civ which could access other civs unique unit by researching some technologies in the respective military building which let them access up to 2 other unique units. Want Longbowmen? Research British Mercenaries! Want Magyar Huszars? Research Hungarian Mercenaries etc. I liked the idea a lot.
The Incan llama is not a dedicated scout unit. It can be used for scouting but it works fundamentally different than a horse unit on a Steppe map e.g.
Not a tanky foot archer unit.
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Might be a bit too OP, specially because it comes from the Stables. The only civ that gets baseline units an Age earlier, is Cumans with their Rams. i think we should keep this unique to them.
This would be a big indirect nerf to Byzantines. Having Castles with the most HP, is really their whole defensive bonus.
I have to disagree on this one. Tower Rush can already be hard to deal with, and Castle drops are killer in the Castle Age.
This would be the perfect civ, that would neutralize the need for all other civs. I think that is why they avoided it, unlike in AoE3, in which all civs really do start to become very samey in the lategame.
It almost is, since it definitely is not mobile enough to be an actual Cavalry Archer in practicality.
The civ with access to other unique unit was limited to 3 unique units in total, so it wasnāt the ultimate unique unit civ still. Iāll post you the concept of it:
Realms mod:
DISCLAIMER: This is only a suggestion. Constructive Feedback is welcome!
Sahels (Nubians, Kanem)
Trade, cavarly, camel civ
A. Civ Boni
- Camel Riders (melee) attack 20% faster
- Camel Riders get +1 melee armour in the Castle Age; +1 in the Imperial Age
- Town Centers, Stables, Archery Range, Barracks, can be packed and moved.
- Packing and unpacking takes 33% of their construction time.
- Movement speed is 0.6
- Supply carts, villagers can drop off resources to one moveable dropsite.
- Livestock pen instead of mill.
Herdable Economy
New mechanic: herdables instead of farms. Cost 60w. Start with 175food. Fatten at a rate of 0.2. Garrison at the livestock pen increase this to 0.5. Max food is 450.Max number of sheep is 50.
-Livestock pen: when sheep garrisoned inside, they fatten at a rate of 0.5.
B. Team Bonus
Trade units move 10% faster
C. Tech Tree
- Barracks: No eagle scouts, no halbs, no champions
- Archery: No Arbalest, no parthian tactics, no cav archers
- Stable: No Cavalier/Paladin, no battle elephants, no steppe lancers, no hussar
- Dock: No Cannon Galley, no Heavy demo ship, no Galleon, no shipwright, no gilnets, no dry docks
- Monastery: No atonement, no block print
- Castle: Full
- Siege Workshop: Full.
- Blacksmith: No plate barding armor, no ring archer armor
- University: No arrowslits, no bombard towers, no architecture, no keep, no fortified walls
- Economic Upgrades: No two man saw, no mill.
D. Unique Unit
Beja (Camel Hand Cannoneer)
Bonus dmg vs buildings (+6)
Created at Archery Range (Starting from castle age)
Cost: 50f 60g
Elite upgrade 1000f 600g
HP: 50/60
Attack Fire Speed: 2.93
Projectile Speed: 5.5
Movement Speed: 1.4/1.4
Accuracy: 65%/70%
Training time: 35s/25s
Attack: 12/14
Range: 6/7
Armour: 2/2, 3/2 for elite
Kanuri
Bonus dmg vs cavarly units (+12), elephants (+10), cav archers (+8)
Created at Castle
Cost: 80f 20g
Elite upgrade 800f 500g
HP: 60/75
Attack Fire Speed: 2.3
Movement Speed: 1.4
Accuracy: 100%
Training time: 25s/18s
Attack: 8/10
Armour: 1/1, 2/2 for elite
E. Unique Tech
Oasis (Castle Age) - Town Centers generate 1 sheep every 1 minute for free Cost: 400f 400w
Caravans (Imperial Age) - Packed buildings move 20% faster, packing and unpacking time reduced to 25% of construction time Cost: 200w 200st 200g
F. Campaign:
Kanem Empire/Wadai/Nubian Kingdoms (vs Malians, Ethiopians, Saracens)
G. Wonder
Gobarau minaret/Gidan Rumfa
Philosophy
Mobile, camel and anti-cav civ.
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To be honest, I would go either mobile drop-off sites or herdable economies. Both in one civ will make the civ stand out too much from the others. Herdable economy seems micro-intensive so not ideal, for the late game at least. Give them terrible farms too with a herdable economy alongside (no Heavy Plow?). You would be incentiviced to go for herdables but would still have the option for farms. Avoid limits if possible, this is what I despised about Age of Empires 3 to be honest.
Their tech tree is terrible. They do not have access to a single power unit/building (Paladin, Arbalest, Heavy Cav Archer, Elite Eagle Warriors, Elite Battle Elephant, Galleon, Bombard Cannon, Siege Onager, Siege Ram,Paladin). Heavy Camels wonāt make your deal. They should have access to at least 2 of those units/buildings (preferably fitting ones) 
The Cumans just with their Feudal Age buildings feel very different already, so imagine not having farming as an option. This is why I love Cumans a lot by the way 
I would give them full siege workshop then.
But I think that their herdable economy fits their ability to pack crucial buildings and move them.
I think it would be alright to eliminate the limit on herdables.