Regional unit skins

[TwerDefender]

@FloosWorld

For those who don’t want to watch the video: As AoE 2 is a 2D game, they have to render every single frame for all actions and 16 directions (in AoE 1, they had 32 directions) as opposed to the 8 directions of the original game. Units are rendered with 60 FPS which makes 960 single images for one action and all directions.

i think cysion is a game designer, not an engineer. I had a look at the files, I think his estimate of “half a terabyte” is absurd. I estimate about 500MB per unit skin pack. Here is what I did:

you can find the game graphics in [your steam folder]\common\AoE2DE\resources_common\drs\graphics

this folder is 5.7 GB. let’s say the entire graphics would have to be copied for each civ, that still only leads to 5.7GB * 45 = 250 GB. However this is literally copying everything (eg interfaces, cheat units, plants, projectiles, buildings, etc).

if you have a look further inside this folder, you can see that files are prefixed (my guess as to what they mean, based on the letter and file names):
a_ 200MB (animals)
b_ 2.6GB (buildings)
n_ 12 MB (nature)
p_ 1.8 MB (projectiles)
s_ 16 MB (aeSthetics. s, because a was already taken? no idea what the letter means, but it’s decorative elements. flags, broken bridges, shipwrecks, campfires, statues)
u_ 2.9 GB (units)
others (some cryptically named files, 20 MB)

so taking just the units folder, for 45 civs that makes 135 GB.

But we can still lower this estimate.
files are prefixed further: eg you have u_arc (for archer) and u_cav (for cavalry), however they seem to be mixing standard units and unique units, and also ror, chronicles and standard de:

however we can still easily exclude some units:
u_[type]_hero 670 MB
u_king 30 MB
u_monk 39 MB
u_shp (ship) 230 MB
u_sie (siege) 360 MB
u_trade 100 MB
u_vil, u_all_ant (?? villagers) 166 MB, maybe _ant is for antiquity? vils in ROR look different, right?

I think Heros certainly don’t need regional unit skins (what the hell is an Aztec William Wallace?), same for ships, kings, monks? they usually already have regional sails

the remaining units are now all either _arc, _cam, _cav, etc. I started separating these between ROR, chronicles, DE. and between UU and generic units, but then lost interest, there 960 files.

In total this is 1.3 GB. This still contains many non-DE units “peltast”, scenario editor/cheat units “photon man” “royal janissary”, unique units “chokonu”, “slinger”. I think at most 1/3 of these files are generic units. Also not all all generic unit lines would need a skin in every civ. We don’t need Mayan Elephants, British
Camels, Chinese Eagle Warriors.

So let’s do the final calculation, let’s add half the villagers back in (50% seem to be from ROR) and we get ~500 MB per civ pack (and monks and kings as well, doesn’t matter). if we were to actually get a civ pack for each civ that’s ~20 GB. Not insignificant, but over an order of magnitude away from cysions claim. if we reduce that to only one per architecture set, it’s closer to 4 GB, so 2 orders of magnitude away from his claim.

Lastly, this should easily be avoidable by just making it an optional download, it already works for the ultra graphics pack

I think a more honest statement would be “we don’t think it would be the effort”

PS: I spent way too much time on debunking this claim…
PS2: I am not going to reread this to spell check it, any mistakes you find you are allowed to keep

[CanineCrown7153]

@TwerDefender

You usually only load graphics into the graphics card, not into RAM

I thought that AoE2 barely used the graphics card, because it’s 2D pr something. I don’t see much difference between a computer with a dedicated graphica card and an integrated graphics card, regarding stuttering and fps and stuff. However, this

@TwerDefender

In total this is 1.3 GB. This still contains many non-DE units “peltast”, scenario editor/cheat units “photon man” “royal janissary”, unique units “chokonu”, “slinger”. I think at most 1/3 of these files are generic units. Also not all all generic unit lines would need a skin in every civ. We don’t need Mayan (sic) Elephants, British
Camels, Chinese Eagle Warriors.

this puts a nail in the coffin to my claim. I salute the effort you made and will use you as a reference from now on.

[HoneyRemedy]

I think devs know well enough about this community, for they have the most active devs compared to those of some other games. The way I see it that “A regional skins pack” is not their priority, at least not for now. I mean, do you want to re-do the codes from 4 or even 8 civs using one architecture set to every unique one?

Also, if I were devs, what’s the purpose of making building and unit skins just for personal view only? At least I have to apply it on campaign, maximizing the history experience. And I don’t see why I have to increase game’s size for that at the moment. Subsequently, increasing it more than 30 GBs just for skin is clearly a waste, let alone there are 30-Gb old RTS games out there and still handle their stuff as good as AoM Retold does.

[Skadidesu]

@CanineCrown7153

In a modern engine, it would be as 'easy ’ as to find every single instance of every unit we’d want it to have regional skins and add an if-else.

Does the game currently load all sprites into RAM even the ones not being used like unused architecture sets and so on?

How does the RAM usage change when you switch from AoE2 to RoR since the RoR dataset should take up less RAM. It still contains a lot of AoE2 units but it should have 0 Chronicles content loaded so there should be some measurable difference, right?

@SortedCave06635

Not covered for Indians

I meant that the unit already has regional skins (more then just the 1 for the Monk) and not that all the different regions are covered well enough yet.

I’m always in for some additional skins and architecture sets.

@TwerDefender

however we can still easily exclude some units:

I think it’s easier to come from the other side.
How many units would even have regional skins?
There are more campaign exclusive units then generic units now.

Regional units don’t need regional skins, obviously.
Some units are practically regional like Camel Riders, Paladins and even Cavalry Archers to some degree.
Some units look very generic to they might not even need regional skins for more then just adjusting skin colour, Skirmisher and Archer for example. But we can still count them.

So we have:
5+3 Infantry
3+2+1 Archer (not counting Cavalry Archer)
3+2 Cavalry (not counting Paladin and Camel Rider)
1 Monk

20 Sprites for Military units and Monks. if we are generous and say there are 10 regions it’s 200 sprites.

Villager has 12 different jobs (including the new Oyster Gatherer) that might have unique sprites, not sure.
That would be 120 sprites if we go with 10 regions again.
So 320 sprites as kind of upper limit.

@TwerDefender

vils in ROR look different, right?

RoR units are in a different folder. But Chronicles Villagers are in the same folder so it’s very likely them.

@HoneyRemedy

Also, if I were devs, what’s the purpose of making building and unit skins just for personal view only?

Fun. Realism. Immersion.
This is a game that people play to have fun. Not a sport people only do to win.
People want to play as the Aztecs when they choose the Aztecs. Not as Europeans with Jaguar Warriors.

If people would play this game just to win ranked matches they would all play with the cube mod.

@HoneyRemedy

30 GB

30GB would be a very upper limit if every civilisation had unique skins.
With SSD prices of like 5 cents per GB this would be like 1.5$ worth of storage.
Realistically it should be way below that like less then 5GB so 25 cents of fast PCIe 4.0 NVMe storage.
And it would be 0 if it was an optional download.

[FloosWorld]

I think Cysion talked about size before compression, no? I remember him mentioning in a pre-release interview that before they started compressing AoE 2 as it is, the game was 150 GB.

[TwerDefender]

@Skadidesu

I think it’s easier to come from the other side.
How many units would even have regional skins?

definitely a valid approach, this might give as a good lower limit.
My purpose was primarily to just debunk the completely bullshit “half a terrabyte” claim. People will have different opinions on how many units should have regional skins. eg I have seen concepts for regional mangonels as well

@Skadidesu

That would be 120 sprites if we go with 10 regions again.

the files currently are usually split between attack, death, decay, idle and walk.
so that would mean (8+6+5) *5 of the 960 files are generic units, that’s closer to 10%, so we can adjust the estimate to be about 10GB if every civ gets their own unit pack, or 2GB if it’s only per architecture set.

@Skadidesu

RoR units are in a different folder. But Chronicles Villagers are in the same folder so it’s very likely them.

ah thank you. i haven’t played either, so wasn’t able to distinguish them

@FloosWorld

I think Cysion talked about size before compression, no?

size before compression is meaningless to the player though. I think this is just (more) dishonest communication, file size is just not a valid reason for avoiding regional skins

[Skadidesu]

@TwerDefender

definitely a valid approach, this might give as a good lower limit.

It’s good to have both an upper and a lower limit. That kinda puts it into a good perspective.

@TwerDefender

the files currently are usually split between attack, death, decay, idle and walk.

Oh yeah I didn’t mean sprites but more like set of sprites.

@TwerDefender

10GB if every civ gets their own unit pack, or 2GB if it’s only per architecture set.

2GB is really not that much.
10 cents of fast SSD storage.

@TwerDefender

ah thank you. i haven’t played either, so wasn’t able to distinguish them

RoR is essentially a mod so you files are in a separate folder that is only installed when you actually buy the mod.

Chronicles as crossplay so everyone has the sprites downloaded so everyone can play against Chronicles civs.

@TwerDefender

size before compression is meaningless to the player though. I think this is just (more) dishonest communication, file size is just not a valid reason for avoiding regional skins

I think he likely just got it wrong by an order of magnitude by mixing up some numbers in his mind.

You spend relatively much time to get a much better estimate.

[cucuct]

@FloosWorld

It’s not due to RAM but rather due to disk space

From the segment you linked:

25:40: “not only put it on your hard drive, also load it into memory”.

It’s hard disk space and RAM, according to this interview.

====

Another factor is that they have changed the file formats from the loseless SMX to the lossy SLD since game launch. The mentioned calculations were based on loseless formats; SLD’s DXT1 compression takes less space both on hard drive and in the RAM.

So adding more skins should have been easier now. I think that’s they’ve already done it through the antiquity skin set in Chronicles DLC.

[TwerDefender]

@cucuct

Another factor is that they have changed the file formats from the loseless SMX to the lossy SLD since game launch. The mentioned calculations were based on loseless formats; SLD’s DXT1 compression takes less space both on hard drive and in the RAM.

aoe2DE was also about 10GB at launch. assuming that at least half the data is not graphics, and at least half the graphics are unique units, heros, scenario items, scenery, wild animals etc that only gives about 2 GB per civ. at launch there were about 30 civs. so that still only gives about 60 GB. either way “half a terrabyte” is bonkers.

Look at it another way, is there any game that you can think of (2D, 3D or anyother amount of Ds) that is half a terrabye big? Games like Against the Storm, Factorio, Dave the Diver are all 2D games, with arguably better graphics which are still smaller than aoe2 de

[TommoChocolate]

@cucuct

From the segment you linked:

25:40: “not only put it on your hard drive, also load it into memory”.

It’s hard disk space and RAM, according to this interview.

While this is true, his estimate of “half a terabyte” is so far off that I don’t think we can take this answer seriously. I think his comment about 2D versus 3D graphics is wrong as well – according to Steam, AoE2DE requires 15 GB storage and 4 GB RAM, while AoE3DE (with 3D graphics) requires 42 GB storage and 8 GB RAM. Graphics will account for some of the disparity, maybe even most of it. (To be honest, maybe all of it for the RAM requirements.)

Personally I don’t think this interview is relevant to regional skins at all – it’s the wrong answer to the wrong question.

[Skadidesu]

The best argument against regional skins seems to be that 20+ years old computers might not be able to handle it.
But that implies that they can’t figure out a way to not force everyone to download and load everything into RAM.
It they figure that out then there is literally no real argument against it being an optional thing being added to the game for the people who like it.

I’m always surprised how many people are trying to find arguments against the tiniest changes that are 100% optional.
Oh no there is a small trees button in the settings now, we are all going to die!

[Apocalypso4826]

@Skadidesu

The best argument against regional skins seems to be that 20+ years old computers might not be able to handle it.

I don’t think computers that old can handle DE in general.

[TyrannoNinja]

@Skadidesu

Almost all generic units in the game looking very Western European is one of my biggest issues with AoE2. If just feels so wrong to play civilisations like Aztecs or Ethiopians. It really sucks the enjoyment out of the game for me.

If I am being honest, I agree. I love all the non-European civilizations in AOE2 and hope they add more, but having almost all my units be pasty-skinned when I’m playing an African, southern Asian, or Native American civilization mucks with my immersion (plus, treating the European physical appearance as the default one has ugly implications that should be obvious). It’s a big reason I don’t play AOE2 as much anymore even though the fandom considers it the best AOE game.

If creating new sprites with new costumes is too much work for the art devs, they should at least make versions of the existing sprites with different skin colors. Give the sprites darker skin for African and Indian civs and a medium tone for the Middle Eastern, Southeast Asian, and Native American ones.

[RankBadge728]

This definitely needs more attention from the game devs.

[Skadidesu]

@Apocalypso4826

I don’t think computers that old can handle DE in general.

Minimal requirements are 19-18 years old hardware so you can probably actually play the game on actual 20 years old hardware.
And I can bet there are a few people that actually do that. If you have a computer that old you don’t have many alternatives to AoE2DE if you want to play something that still has a player base and regular updates.

Edit:
I didn’t look up the minimal requirements before making the 20 years old statement. I was picking a random number that felt too high but it’s funny that it turned out about right.

[TwerDefender]

it also requires windows 10, which is only 10 years old. I doubt many 20 year old PC will be able to run that

[TommoChocolate]

My PC is 13 years old and runs AoE2DE very well. But yes, running it on a 20-year-old PC might be pushing it…

[Skadidesu]

@TwerDefender

it also requires windows 10, which is only 10 years old. I doubt many 20 year old PC will be able to run that

Does it really or did they just support the oldest supported version of Windows (which will be Windows 11 next year btw.)

Also Windows 10 has surprisingly low minimal requirements. I think they were almost unchanged since Windows Vista.
Not sure if AoE2DE runs on a 32 bit CPU at all though.

If we consider that they only support computers that are also supported by the newest version of Windows then the minimal requirements would go up significantly.
Windows 11 essentially requires a 5-6 years old computer because it requires TMP 2.0.
That is way way newer. My main computer as a R7 1700X which is 7 years old and could not run Windows 11 (but that doesn’t matter for me since I don’t run Windows on it anyway).

@TommoChocolate

My PC is 13 years old and runs AoE2DE very well. But yes, running it on a 20-year-old PC might be pushing it…

Might be interesting to try how old you can go.
A 20 years old computer hight end would probably beat a 15 years old low end computer I’d assume.