Remove ability for ranged units to build seige

Some CIVs longtime and current META is to just mass ranged units, research seige, spam rams and cover with ranged units.

How about removing the ability for ranged units across the board to make seige units, only allowing melee units to build seige. That will force (especially in early game) the production of melee units and make for more tactical and thoughtful play.


The TC is very powerful in the early game, so melee units (apart from french healing knights) have a hard time. I doubt that melee units can do any harm in the area covered by the TC. Im not quite sure what the status quo of english dark and feudal maa is though. If you want to increase the number of tactical options in the early game the TC should become weaker in my opinion. That way the entire game play gets way more open and people are not forced to build rams literally every time they go for an early push. If you take away the ability to build rams from ranged units you will end up in an even more static game with even less tactical and thoughtful play. The tactical aspect is already limited due to the need of rams for feudal aggression.

you really wanna punish the attacker for building rams?
The defender has already the “home” bonus of the TC, shorter reinforce ways and so on.
For my opinion its a very bad idea and makes the game more static and everyone turtles.
again, if you cant handle a early push with the defender advantage, maybe you should change your tactics, more scouting, less greedy, more military units.

The thought was not to punish the utilization of building rams, but to require a little more strategy, to have melee units in your ranks in order to do so.

My ingame experience would disagree about the TC. TC can’t do nothing to longbowmen/archers who are out of reach, nor can it do any effective damage to the rams which leads you to sacrificing your villagers as they are hit from the ranged units.

The job of the TC isnt to protect you from longbows or rams.
sounds like you have zero military units? maybe you should improve your own tactic?
As I said before, scout and react what you see.

No TC is trash when a ram appears. It wastes all of its dps on single ram and melee units even spears can kill all villagers under TC. They can even easily burn down TC.

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In presence of ram TC does nothing.

You dont have too big of a base and army can stand under TC blocking both eco and reinforcements and your TC does nothing to units in presence of ram.

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Yea not rams but yes from longbows and spears. It is supposed to protect you from these units.

You can keep longbows away from TC and your resources by making slightly forward outpost. Researching arrow-slits will increases range so longbows cant snipe and run away.

Longbows along are not bigger issue. You can make two horsemen and push them back. Mixed with spears they are more tough as you will need to do more micro with archers + horsemen. But I think these units comps are balance in current game. The only issue I have is with TC wasting dps on rams instead of killing units that are in range.

You can’t simply press a magic button for a ram to appear. The player has to build a siege workshop, tech siege engineering, build infantry units and build an actual ram in front of your base. And all this during the early game at the 10 minutes mark which makes it a quite big investment.

And the TC does become weaker but its not trash. Build units and attack your opponents units while some cits around your TC can easily destroy the ram. Wow really, stop crying. There’s some seriously spoiled people on these forums. Go play a few games trying to be active and rush your opponent and you will see how powerful the TC is, even when rams are being used.

And again: Build actual units to defend your base. You can still retarget your TC for a single enemy unit. Changing its priorization or/and allowing qeues would make it too powerful imo.

  • That’s why in this game scouting is very very important. Especially in the early stages.

  • It takes time and resources for a ram push and if you know the steps you can anticipate it and counter.

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To those saying scout and build units to defend your base…

I think the greatness of a game is defined by replayability…

Lets look at playing an English opponent for example:

80% of the time before the game even starts you know they are racing to Feudal age, massing longbowmen and researching siege technology so by 2-5 minutes after they become Feudal age they are at your doorstep with longbowmen making rams.

Yes…I can do the same build against English to counter but once again I think the game is becoming to predictable/bland. Why not make the game less predictable?

This hapens every patch day for a few days before the high elo players figure the patch.

Then everyone copies the easiest strategy and use it over and over. So the game again becomes predictable until the high elo playesr finds the next best thing. It is a neverending cycle.

So sadly in the end it all turns to who is faster and more efficient in using that “same strategy”.

whats the difference if a longbow or a spearman build the RAM?
exactly nothing, its still predictable,

Melee units can’t hide behind the rams and attack my villagers/other units…

In other words I would be dealing with a scenario of 10 spearman / 10 longbowmen and rams instead of 20 longbowmen and rams…

I understand that but this is something that has existed from day one and no patch has changed its META or usefullness.

I feel like for a game that compares its gameplay to rock/paper/scissors…we have a game that is being played as rock vs paper in some instances.

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maybe you do something wrong? if you deal with 20 longbows build counter units like horsemen and they are dead, meanwhile your villager can easy take out the RAM.

is this so complicated?

again, you have the home TC Bonus, reinforce units are faster on the field.

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What AridSubset said plus your horsemen have got a significant mobility advantage. Your opponent needs to get to your base and thereby is forced to split his army. Chances are high he just set a rally point in front of your base so that each longbow does the walk on its own. Use your horsemen to kill those single longbows and cut his longbows in front of your base off from supply. That by the way is a strategic decision. But that forces you to be active too and leave your base. People really need to understand that they can’t sit in their base turtling and expect to win.

I don’t recall asking for a strat on how to play against English players…

The point was to require melee units to build seige. How about explain why this is a bad idea…unless you are an English player?

Because it limits the offensive options in early-mid game even more. And those options are already very limited.

Lets turn it the other way around. Let’s suppose I am a player that wants to finish the game within 10 minutes. I would like to be very active, rush on my opponent and force him to do mistakes. And lets assume I am the far superior player. What other options besides building rams do I have right now?

If you want to make rams weaker (what you do if you allow less units to actually build them) you need to make the other offensive options stronger. E.g. that means you would need to increase the attack speed for english longbows, increase hp for units like horsemen or mma that could raid your cits or simply just weaken the TC or stop it completely from shooting arrows. I would really be fond of that change as it would increase the dynamics of this game but also add strategic options in early-mid game. What do you think?

I think it might have some adverse effects for cavalry-archer comps, making cavalry openers less likely and reducing their opponent’s space of possibilities to account for. This would allowing for non-cav civs to go heavier on the greed without scouting, without fear of repercussion. I believe all civs should have the possibility to punish extreme greed with a ram push. Cavalry civs are already worse at ram pushes due to their lower infantry count.