Controversial for sure. I think it would be the first Unique Tech from before HD to be replaced entirely. My issue with it is that it is very expansive for a limited effect, and only affecting a unique unit. My suggestion: exactly as for the Turtle Ship, pack the +20HP regeneration of Beserkir into the elite upgrade (which could then be more expansive again).
Then another unique tech, with moderate effect could come as replacement. For instance “Raids” would return to the Viking player 20% of the cost of destroyed enemy buildings as gold. This should not apply to walls or farms, and perhaps 20% is the wrong amount, but it would allow the Viking very late game to improve a bit, and that is clearly not where they shine.
Now, I know Vikings are already quite powerful because of their economy and free Wheelbarrow and Hand Cart, but I think this is a debate in itself. My point here is simply that Beserkergang is expansive, clearly way too much for its effect, and I would rather see it replaced (but its effect kept), as this seems to be the trend.
It is only “trend” for UU which were totally useless/never used, because they were either far too weak or didn’t match the playstyle of the civ. The UT of vikings is totally fine and giving them this for “free” with the elite upgrade would be totally wrong.
god, please no. This would be way too broken.
Maybe people should start realising that not every civ needs an amazing UT. If you compare the new UT of the huns with UT of the vikings i think we agree that the latter is more useful. Im fine if you rework UT which have never been used into sth. useful but i’m not a fan of buffing every UT because “it is a trend”. Especially not for civs who are already in a good spot.
I didn’t say they should have the effect of Beserkergang necessarily for free, and indeed suggest increasing the cost of the Elite upgrade then. Then I proposed an alternative UT we can discuss and it might be too powerful indeed, but we could discuss numbers (e.g. 10% instead of 20%, or have it only affect economic or military buildings), but my point is that Beserkergang is not very useful.
Design-wise, Saracens, Slavs and Vietnamese were in an all right spot before the upcoming patch, but the reworked UT come to compliment the design. And this is basically what I suggest here. And indeed, not every UT needs to be fantastic.
Now, it is indeed better than Atheism, which has been modified but not removed entirely.
Yeah but no player at a decent level ever researched saracenes or slavs tech. Vikings UT is pretty good if you play berserks. I think vietnamese got a rework because it’s like more of a teambonus than actually a UT…and it’s lame.
We can talk about reducing the cost of the tech but i’m not a fan of giving them a new tech. It’s automatically a buff for the civ, which again, is already in a really good spot.
I mean if we start reworking every UT which has it’s use but maybe not in every game…well i could give you at least 20 UT which would need a rework then…this should be only done for civs which are in a bad spot.
the point of doing this (similar to the cataphract) is so that the same powerful unit can be attained, but is made more flexibly achievable by incremental tech
so i can use E berserks without beskergang if i have the eco in a 1v1, but then in a TG when i have an even better eco, i can get all associated tech as well (like cataphracts)
if anything they could add an additional effect to berserkergang so it doesnt only affect berserks (like how 1st crusade improves conversion resistance, or PT affects UU differently to generic CA)
and finally berserks are arguably one of the best infantry UU in the game, you need to be very careful if you buff them in certain conditions. aside from obuchs, i think they are still the most cost effective infantry against the most targets, and some civs (like celts) already dont have much choice when fighting them
I mean at the end you want to buff vikings. Why should the elite upgrade cost more and they get berserkergang “for free”? Why not just lower the cost of the UT then?
I don’t really disagree with anything you said, and would not suggest get rid of Logistica. Decreasing the cost of Beserkergang could be a start given its effect, but I stick to my point: Logistica is fundamental to have the full effect of Cataphracts. Beserkergang is much more anecdotical. And a replacement UT would not need to be very powerful, but simply to match the Vikings’ identity (which I think my idea does).
Adding an extra effect to Beserkergang like affecting all infantry, or also applying to Longboats would make it more interesting indeed, but I would be more concerned with balance then.
With regards to balance: again, I agree balance is more important than pure design. What I’m saying is not necessarily ceteris paribus, but just a reflexion about the design of the UT. Were Vikings eco to ever get nerfed, that may open the door to a stronger UT for instance. On top of that, Vikings suffer in the very late game in 1 vs 1 when gold is scarce, and a UT mostly relevant for trash wars seems appropriate to me.
For a sense of scale and a fun mental image: it would be more profitable for two viking allies to trade buildings than to buy gold at the market. Even if it costs some villager time and a ram.
Yeah that seems like the obvious change (if any). Vikings are pretty strong and Berserkergang is a useful tech (if a little expensive) if you have Berserks. No need to scrap a tech when a minor change would be more than enough.
Vikings are one of the best Civ Designs we currently posses. Before messing up with them I’d recommend you start with Franks/Britons/Burgundians/Bohemians and other garbage civ designs.