Request: Make Goths Okay Again

So the Goths haven’t been in danger of being anywhere near overpowered since AoC, and even then it was only very situational (e.g. vs Mayans in Post-Imp). The consensus is that in nearly every matchup, they’re very much lower tier, and due to power creep in subsequent expansions are not even close to being the definitive infantry civ anymore (losing out to Slavs, Malians, Aztecs, Japanese, Incas, Burmese, etc, all of whom have top tier infanty, better eco bonuses, fewer defensive penalties, and more flexibility than Goths). In high level/pro 1v1s, it’s uncommon even for Goths to use the swordsman line, and in pro team games they’re often relegated to sling position. Combine this with the new DE Supplies tech and now literally every other civ gets access to a huge chunk of the Goth’s most iconic bonus of cheaper infantry (their “hunting bonus” being the most useless eco bonus in the game, and their +10 pop and +1 building attack being similarly inconsequential). As a result Goths don’t really have a viable identity anymore that makes them worth choosing, even for fans of infantry civs. The huskarl is still good, but if a UU was a good reason to choose a civ, the Vietnamese would be way more popular.

So…let’s make Goths okay again. Cysion mentioned that Goths would be given some kind of buff to compensate for not getting Supplies, and hopefully that will be forthcoming in the next update. Personally, I would like to see Supplies removed and replaced with a series of small buffs to the swordsman line, that make them more viable without undercutting the main appeal of the Goths, or destroying the cost effectiveness and utility of other infantry (like Samurai and Berserks). Something like giving the swordsman line in Castle Age onward +1 pierce armor, +10% speed, +5 hp, and -5 food cost. Something to help them deal with archers a little better, but not make them OP.

Other ways to buff the Goths would be to make their hunting “bonus” actually useful. Maybe a weaker combo of the Mayan and Mongol bonuses, say hunters work 15% faster and hunted food lasts 10% longer? Or that they get +10% population in Imperial instead of +10 (which is a negligible advantage in games over 100 pop given the very low pop efficiency of their units). Palisade walls build 50% faster? Maybe even give them plate mail? Just something to make them useful and unique again.

And just for fun, wouldn’t it be awesome if the Anarchy tech also allowed you to survive the loss of your king in Regicide? Yeah it would.

8 Likes

Their main problem is early game, so fixing their unique tech doesn’t balance that.
Maybe start with a free house?
That would work well with the population boost.
It should be placed in the direction of the nearest enemy town center.
That way it can be used as a start of your wall.

Edit: I confused anarchy for atheism.

I wonder why everyone is like Supplies = nerfed goths, when people almost never bother to make inf if they don’t have bonuses for it. In the beta I had a discussion with someone who wanted elite skirms and pikemen for Turks in exchange for worse inf upgrades. When I say it would make champions really bad, he replied no one produces them as Turk. And when I think of it, I never saw a Saracen, Mongol, Frank, ect… champion either, just because all these civs have bonuses on other units. So it won’t make all civs equal to goths, only those who have a bonus on inf will 1-have a chance cost-effectively and 2-actually want to answer with their own infantry. And it’s forgetting the fact the gold cost of supplies is gone since you don’t get a discount on gold (while the Goths still do) and you need to create 10 swordsmen to get your food investment back, and maybe unless you’re Malian no one’s going to do that in Feudal/Castle. Also add than the strenght of Goth infantry is more in the creation speed than in the discount, who cares about food when all your base is covered in farms? And to finish this rant, now there is much more civs with non-FU champions, and those are the one who get the most “nerfed” by supplies (just try supplies on Tatar and Persian). Oh, and Force levy too (even tho the lower cost of the tech is nice). So to sum it up: Goths aren’t worse than they already were for the first 3 ages, and now the pool of civ able to resist their Imp flood is now a bit less shallow. That’s all and doesn’t sound anywhere close to trash tier

I think goths are still OK and very versatile, but people just do not see them as MODERN ,…let s say they are out of fashion. But there is more to them than cheap infantry.
You can make gunpowder units / and then imagine some guys wishing for historical accuracy in a game where goths get b. cannons and cannon galleons… LOL :smiley: / You can even make not so bad CAV ARCHERS if you wish, though nobody does it with Goths in a serious game. You can make onagers and infantry… SO YEAH, goths are OK and do not need changes I like the idea that they might get a 5 percent more maximum POP since +10 is nothing if you play on 225 or higher max pop…

2 Likes

Sadly with only 1/2 chance to hit their targets without Thumb ring cav archers are a big no for any civs lacking this tech. At least you could be Khmer and get trolled by having EVERYTHING except Thumb ring lol (Partian tactic on Burmese or HP boost for Franks are good jokes too lol)

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I think you missed a few things in my post man, and correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like you never play as Goths and aren’t interested in whether they’re viable or not. It’s incredibly clear that giving supplies to everyone is a nerf to Goths, and the devs have admitted as much, so treating this as anything but a major nerf comes off as a little disingenuous. I’m going to repeat myself since it seems necessary, but there are plenty of civs that already (pre DE) have strong infantry bonuses AND strong eco bonuses that help them get that early edge on Goths AND greater tactical flexibility AND better defenses. And there are plenty of pre-DE pro games where Malay, Slav, Japanese, Aztec, Burmese, Vikings, etc. infantry can hold their own or even counter Goths, and now on top of that they have access to a major part of a bonus that was previously exclusive to Goths. So like I said, it makes Goths, who were already a middling one-trick pony infantry civ at best (look at the win rates - not good, and they are consistently ranked in the bottom third of every civ list I’ve seen lately), pushed that much further behind the pack, especially against any other infantry civ. And sure, civs with no infantry bonus may not elect to research supplies, but they now have one more tool in their already strong arsenal to counter Goths (even generic champs with the last armor upgrade do ok against Goth champs). Furthermore, the creation speed bonus of 20%, while nice, is pretty minor until Imp when you can research Perfusion, and the only substantive thing that helps you even get that far is an infantry bonus that everyone else now has a (weaker) version of. Anyway, I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but I do think most people who play Goths would acknowledge that they’ve been hit pretty hard with the nerf stick, and that there are now many other civs that do infantry better as well as doing many other things better than Goths. And I do think it’s easy to think that a civ that is clearly underpowered as borne out by data “is fine the way it is” if you never play as them.

As for being versatile, most people who have a serious take on the game (casters, Pros, etc) wouldn’t really consider the Goths to be very flexible. All of their bonuses are centered around infantry, and while they can execute an ok knight or crossbow rush in Castle (like…almost every other civ), they have no bonuses to make those strategies more justifiable, and the Archer and Cav lines basically become dead ends. Sure, it’s nice to be able to make a few hand cannons, but it doesn’t say good things about the way the civ is designed in the current meta if you opt for generic units for which you have no bonus versus core units that should be heavily incentivized. Heck, I’d be okay with Goths losing hand cannons and cannon galleons if it meant that their infantry was more viable, or if they got a strong eco bonus.

The free house is a nice idea, but ends up being a one-off/much weaker version of the Chinese (TC +5 pop) or Inca (each house supports 2x pop) bonuses. I think they need a little more than that.

3 Likes

This explanation is better, now I see what you meant. I had in mind some people comparing the Goths to a magicarp, along with civs like Saracen or Portugal, as a way to say they were really bad until hitting imp where they basically become unstoppable. So for me, supplies being a Feudal technology meant that it wouldn’t affect the Goths too much since infantry is either used to rush in really early feudal (where less civs are their inf bonus at their full power), before supplies, and then they wouldn’t be used until Imperial, where the Goths had all their bonuses/techs. I guess people are over-estimating the Goth flood then (And don’t worry, I didn’t felt “disrespected” at all)

I appreciate your civility and your ability to separate your opinions from your identity. Sadly not always something we can take for granted on the internet, so better to tread lightly. Understand and be understood eh?
But yeah, I think some people, and especially newer players, can overestimate the Goth flood. It’s strong to be sure, but it’s one of those things like longbows, war elephants, or teutonic knights, that seem to be OP until you learn how to fight them, after which they’re actually pretty easy to counter. I used to play almost exclusively as Goths, but I got wrecked often enough by similar elo players using Malay (2H Sword Spam is no joke), Slavs (Druzinha champs cost-effectively counter Goth champs), Aztecs (Jags cost effectively slaughter anything that comes out of the barracks), to say nothing of getting wrecked by post imp siege, hand cannons, or killed by civs with better eco bonuses before I could reach Imp. Anyway, we’ll see what the devs do, Goths aren’t in quite a bad spot as, say Vietnamese, but I hope they get a little love, as well as every other civ that’s less weak and less popular.

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BTW supplies reduced the food cost of champs BUT not the gold cost. Goths still have a cheaper champ in terms of gold + cheaper garbage pikes

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I’m aware, like I said it’s a lesser version of the Goths bonus, but still pretty impactful when you consider Goths originally saved 28 resources per swordsman over other civs (21 food, 7 gold), and with supplies researched they only save 13 (6 food, 7 gold) per swordsman over those civs, so the Goth bonus on swordsmen is comparatively more than cut in half. Saving that gold is handy in the late game, but in early-midgame, gold isn’t that much more valuable than food. And cheap spears is nice, but doesn’t save you that much res until late game trash battles. So yeah, it’s something, but cheap spears and slightly cheaper infantry is not much to go on.

People thinks Supplies weakened Goths but that’s not really the case. I think it’s about time Goths need an early eco bonus. I hope they get their Post Imp one time spam option to be nerfed slightly. Like actually 50% faster working barracks instead of 100% faster barracks due to tech tree bug. Give them a weaker stone wall? Like not getting HP buff in Castle? and some other buff here and there?

Nah, for Goths to have weaker stone walls they would have to lose Architecture/MAsonry, and I don’t think that would be a good thing since they need their Castles to research their good techs. For the boar bonus I remember liking it when I was a kid since after trying to hunt them with my scout (lol) I learnt to fear them, so for me it looked cool, but for some reason the devs didn’t see it would be nullified by the lure mechanic. Maybe having the tatar bonus but for the boar would be nice

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This is a good idea, it should be like Goths killing a boar means it provides + 150food

Pro’s don’t like Goths because of a lack of early bonuses and lack of flexibility/maneuvreability, which means a relatively large risk of losing before reaching post-imp infantry spam. So balance changes should improve their early game mostly, but not too much because else they reach their deadly spam too early. More defensive capability instead to survive a bit easier until imperial age is also an option, and maybe a bit more options for unit choice. Below are a few balance ideas that I thought of, ofcourse they shouldn’t be applied all.

Eco bonus ideas (partly playing into infantry strength):

  • Barracks cost reduced to 125 wood.
  • Existing +10 population bonus doesn’t need to be accomodated by houses and is applied at the start of the game, which saves some wood and villager time early in the game (better than the idea of starting with a free house or two, since those could spawn badly, blocking berries for example)
  • +10 or +20 gold per boar and/or deer killed by a villager, which is a general eco bonus that makes mainly m@a rush more potent (might be tricky because of map Valley. Maybe m@a rush might become too strong)

More unit choice ideas:

  • Gain Plate Barding Armor (final cavalry defense upgrade), which would make cavaliers and hussars a viable alternative.

Better defense ideas:

  • Palisade walls +50% HP, makes sense because they lack stone walls. (steal bonus from current holder?)
  • Gain Guard tower.
  • TC’s either +1/+2/+3 or +0/+1/+2 range in feudal/castle/imperial age, which helps mainly against mangonel pushes, (steal bonus from current holder, a new civ that has the +3 range bonus?)
5 Likes

I’d like a small eco boost in Dark/Feudal age too. Maybe a food eco bonus, as anything else thematically wouldn’t feel right imo. That or a reduction in cost for something else to give them just a little more oomph.

I like the suggestion of making boars last longer, or their boars with more food. A fun boaring civ.

Simple change. Give Goths the final Armour Upgrade. THE DEVS ARE COWARDS!!!

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OH, YES, totally upgraded champions would be cool. Before supplies was in the game, it dindt make sense, but now, people are enjoying cheaper fully upgraded champions with supplies, so giving that upgrade to goths would be fair.

Technically next week the Goths will get buffed when Cumans/SL get nerf lol. Too bad they are so slow because seeing what the Goth flood can against SL spam would have been nice

Free stone mining upgrade?

They only could usr them for castles and town centers. No trush