Rework Dutch, 17 years without changes

That’s it, that’s the statement. 17 years with just 2 or 3 decks possible, 4 now with the logistician. Every game goes the same, turtle like hell, survive until you reach age3, let the banks print money, and win with ruyter+skirm.

17 years the same playstyle, in fact, the 1v1 decks are the same as the team ones. It gets boring playing as and against them.


the reason being that it doesn’t need changes. not every civ needs to be complicated for the sake of being complicated. Dutch has a reliable playstyle and a set of weaknesses. it was pretty awful for 1v1 on TAD, a few small tweaks and now its a solid beginner civ. Additionally it has lots of room for variety. Halbs, grens even. decent hussars. lots of possibilities. Playing against dutch is something i actually enjoy because it gives me a set of parameters i can work within to counter-play. its a good civ with good roots that has withstood the test of time.


I’ve seen vanilla times, RE patch, EP patch, and nothing has change substantially, it’s such a braindead civ with the best pathing goons, being so easy works for beginners but a high level play you get to know the deal.
Also, it’s just a boomer that whenever you face them you “can’t let them get to age3” like once they age it’s over, they mini factories get to pay off faster than any other boom.

I’m genuinely avoid playing them since it’s so easy to wall, turtle and ship all the counter units to your enemy. The skirm-goon meta should have stayed on EP, however dutch has survived without changes. Add town militia, improved buildings and maybe 2INF outpost, and you can’t lose, just mass and play the long game(which the last tourneys we’ve all watched how insufferable is to face a turtle civ that just with survivng might take a chance to win…

How about we start by banning skirms until age III?

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dutch is very vulnerable to counter-tech builds like FI and also relatively poor against japan and brits, among others. Even at high level play, dutch doesnt have a terribly high win percentage- germany is a common counterpick, as was (is?) india.

If you dont like it and want a civ with 20 viable decks and 30 build orders, great, you have like 15 other civs with that available to you. There absolutely needs to be some basic civs with basic builds and decks available for newer players. I’ve been playing this game since the week it was released (with breaks here and there of course) and i can barely keep up with the immense complexity of all the new matchups. If the player base has any chance of growing and retaining players there has to be beginner civs that are reliable and easy to understand the underlying mechanics. There’s no need for 21 USA and mexico level “feature creep” civs.


“There’s no need for 21 USA and Mexico level “feature creep” civs.”

Agree, but Dutch players also deserve a breath of fresh air and some variety in their decks.

Some new decent age II and age IV military shipping could open up new rush and FI strategies.

Its boom could be reduced and more aggressive openings could be improved.

An infinite card of 600 wood could be added and the 700w and 600w sends could be eliminated.

And in return get military shipments from halberdiers&skirms/mercenaries in age II with a cost of gold. Even some african native shipment.

Or a mixed shipment of wood + units.


I agree with you, maybe 2 or 3 new cards that are situational wouldn’t change the civ so much but it would give a different flavor when playing…


Maybe add a card with Holland Farms making mills/farms/fields priceless.
A card called Geuzenvloot which gives militia caravel which live for 2 minutes?
A culverin card in the fortress age or like a lil’culverin, would be historically accurate for the 80 years war how the spanish sieges were countered. Together with a card Military Reformations with faster shooting for skirmishers.

Speaking of farms, I imagine that some civilians, especially those who excelled in the sugar trade, could receive a card something like this:

  • Sugar Cycle: The collection of coins from your properties will increase considerably (maybe between 30% to 50%), however they are now costing +300 coins.

The idea is your sugar trade can really make you rich but if you lose your properties you will have to make a big investment to get them back.
I think this card would fit well for Portuguese, Dutch and French.

Bad idea, that civs have a very good eco on treaty.

Dutch eco is surprisingly good right now when it shouldnt with just 60/5 vills. Its not a coincidence that Japan, Dutch and France are in most matches.

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They lack musketeers and get weaker than normal skirms in age 2, never seen the issue. Dutch will also be reworked as other civs have been in a few small ways it’s just a case of waiting until it’s their turn, though other civs like haud/lakota/otto are in more urgent need of some changes first imo.

Na,the Dutch are fine… that is, they are a civ of booming a lot… they have the best dragons with the ruyters, the best frigate with the fluyt and with the surplus of currency you can take out mercenaries as if there were no tomorrow…they are like the Swedes but with a better economy…

The range is the problem, as well as costing gold. They are too strong to be age II. They are literally the best unit in the game.

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I don’t particularly like their range myself, it’s way more than most other units in age 2. Wouldn’t be too bad to lower it’s range in age 2 then increase it upon age up.

At least remove the skirm shadowtech

I think lowering it to 17 or 18 then back to 20 for fortress would be fine.