I want to believe that, but they replaced Berserkergang with a tech improving archers, so that leads me to believe that they don’t care about the Vikings being played as an archer civ.
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Lol, and who took cartaginians and egypt navies out of the picture?
I swear I was going to just ignore this topic but once you get to a certain point it’s just too hilarious…
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They also fought Romans well.
I’ve already commented on how that UT was to fix the hole in their military that removing thumb ring left. It’s clear the devs want Vikins to focus on infantry, but they also need to maintain at least Paper and Scissors, cus lets face it, Viking cavalry, their “Rock” is meh at best. So take away the Scissors too and what are they supposed to do?
I swear, I should start putting “I can read more than one sentence” on my resume because it seems like a rare skill whenever I talk to you. Cherry pick harder, I bet you can’t
Oh, I see. Good point.
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So the cataginians and egyptina navies were worth of notice but the navy that took them out of the picture not…
I swear I didn’t want to pick just that sentence, there was soo much that I could have said of that post, it’s just that as I red that I laughed so hard and completely stop taking any of this thread seriously.
Like, the fastest way of travel? sure… the most reliable? Not so much…
The sea was navigable only for about half of the year, and even in those months it’s was still subject to storms and shipwrecks. Besides the fact that there wasn’t a fleet capable of carrying the late roman army, it would also be a logistic problem, as it was complicated to constantly supply the army on a fleet.
Still, the romans had annual state organized mercantile fleets from cartage and egypt to transport all the agricultural goods from Africa.
And I’ll guess you’ll say now that this wasn’t a military fleet, except that permanent armed fleets was a thing in the antiquity for nobody, as it was a waste in period of peace, so fleets were raised at the necessity either by scratch or by reconverting mercantile ships, but we would return to the point were several people already pointed out that the romans were in fact able to do so even in the late empire and with resources of only the Italian peninsula, facts that you already ignored or belittle because despite being historical proof they don’t suits the argument of your poor out-shadowed portoghese…
NOTE: by the way you know that we can see all edits of a post, so if you change one we can still see the old one.
You seem to have missed the FULL quote. Let me get you up to date:
Don’t forget a legion is about 4,200 men. If Caesar wants to march from point A to point B with only 4 legions, he has to transport 16,000 men. That’s not accounting for animals, slaves, supplies or accompanying parties. I dunno about you but modern roads today can’t survive more than a few years with constant traffic on them. What do you think 16,000 men, 10,000 slaves and pack animals, as well as the local traffic would do to a muddy path in the rain?
Yes the Romans roads were mighty impressive and helped dramatically in the transportation of armies and supplies over land, but don’t forget that ships in Antiquity had an average speed of 4.6 mph in standard conditions while hauling up to 150 tons.
From the following videos, you can get a real scale for the size of a legion and the logistics of supplying such a force. These also include several useful and interesting pieces of information about how ships were used when not in combat.
This is what I mean by, yes, they had an impressive navy. But Top 5 things they’re famous for? No. Their navy, while impressive, is simply overshadowed by their much more interesting and impressive achievements.
Note: I know you can see edits. Often I’m simply fixing spelling mistakes or rewording sentences to clarify information more accurately. What of it? I’m not allowed to edit my comments?? Ok Mr Policeman… chill…
The navy that took them out already disappeared by the time Rome reached total control of the Mediteranean, Vegetius mentioned in his Notitia Dignitatum that Roman Navy disappeared at the end of the 4th century, the Battle of the Hellespont is probably the last time Rome’s “renewed” navy saw action.
My topic is from before RoR was launched but my sources there should be quite accurate.
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You make a good point. The famous naval battles with Egypt and Carthage that everyone here keeps mentioning happened waaaaay before the 5th century, which is the WRE that the Romans in AOE2 are based off. So we really shouldn’t be using their navy in the republic era as the benchmark
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Exactly, WRE has no navy and also probably one of the reason why they would never retake Tunisia from the Vandals. ERE on the other hand does have a formidable navy at that time, reflected by the Byzantines already.
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One important point of the debate is what time frame do the Romans represent and how much alternative history is in there.
Do the Romans start at 300 AD or only after the fall of Carthage?
Obviously not 300 BC.
Do the Romans represent a West Rome that managed to get their shit together?
How much do bonuses represent what a civilisation did and how much what a civilisation was theoretically capable of?
The Romans choose not to invest into a navy but they still knew how to build ships.
The Cumans never had a navy but they would have been able to build one if they had to, just not a good one. That’s why they have access to the dock in AoE2.
How long do Roman roads survive heavy trucks running over them all day?
The issue are modern cars being so big and so many trucks using the road.
Not saying that Roman roads aren’t impressive though.
But not sure if the Late Roman Empire should get a bonus based in Infrastructure that was mostly build in the early Empire.
Ironically it’s Dry Dock what they are missing, the technology that increases the size of Transport Ships and makes naval trade more efficient.
It would maybe make more sense to switch it with Shipwright which reduces Wood cost and training time.
But Shipwright is not as good as Dry Dock.
So how about:
- Replace Dry Dock with Ship Wright
- Replace both Unique Technologies
- Galley Line +1 attack stays the same
- Galley Line gets +1/+1 armour starting in Castle Age (so -1/-1 for Galleons compared to now)
- Dromons keep their +2/+2
That means the Romans have a good navy in the early game (Feudal and Castle) but their Galley Line gets a lot weaker in Imperial Age where they don’t get Bracer.
They have to really on the expensive Dromon to be able to effectively fight Fast Fire Ships.
So like in real life they will struggle to rebuild their navy in the late game because their ships cost more and train slower (because no Shipwright) and they also need the expensive Dromon to fill the gap of the Demo Ship line.
They can still have a powerful navy in the late game but it’s expensive.
New UT ideas:
Castle Age:
- Makes their Skirmishers Stronger
I kinda like the idea of making their Skirmishers a none Trash unit.
They get the best Skirmishers but they have to play Gold for them.
Making Trash Wars even harder for the Romans, reflecting the financial issues of the late Empire.
Cost scales with the number of Skirmishers you have so it’s not worth building a lot of Skirmishers before researching the Technology.
Alternatively:
- Towers cost 50 Stone 125 Wood
- Towers +5 LOS
Keep removed from their Techtree.
That gives them cheap but weak Towers (no Keep, no Bracer, no heated shot, no Arrowslits).
The Keep would mostly be removed for Aesthetic reasons. The Watch and Guard Tower are based on Roman Towers, the Keep is more Italian looking.
Imperial Age:
- Aura of Centurions improved (no longer part of the Elite Centurion)
- Some building also gets an Aura that improves movement speed to reflect Roman logistics.
AD 395 – the year that the Roman Empire was permanently divided into east and west – according to this official overview of Return of Rome.
In game, the Romans date back to about 395 C.E., making them contemporaries with the Goths, Celts, Britons, Franks, Persians, etc.
(Weird to include Britons and not Huns in that list, but there we go.)
Nah i have no interest in arguing with people like you, have a nice day 
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WRE had a big navy, even most of the Vandal navy was roman made…
I think Vandals never faced WRE navy in a head on clash like Egypt or Carthage.
Vandals fleets were used more in raids than fights, and when they fighted Vandals bribed and schemed to get superiority.
If the argument is that since WRE didn’t have major naval wins they should not be considered a naval civ… well, their army did not do much better, Rome fell after all.
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I don’t think the debate should be if it is justified to give the Romans the best navy in the game, but rather if any civ should even have a better navy than the Portuguese or Vikings.
I think the water is so imbalanced, with some like Teutons or Aztec having really bad navy, so I don’t think its wise to increase the spread between the best and the worst navy civs even further.
All new civs should fall somewhere in the middle between the current best naval civs (Portuguese/Vikings/Dravidians) and the worst (Teutons/Aztec/Franks/…)
If new even better naval civs are introduced, something should be done for the bottom civs to not be completely trahsed on water.
The feeling is mutual. Not like you were adding jack to this conversation anyway. Bye
- I don’t care if they get Dry Dock or Ship Wright or both. Makes no difference to me.
- I agree both UT can be reworked into something better.
- Nope. +1 goes away
- That sounds fine
- Dromons don’t get +1/+1
Also give them demo raft. As you said, means they’re fine during Feudal and Castle but fall off Imp.
I agree their UT need a rework. I also propose a slight rework to their units.
Longswordsman replaced by Legionary. 1 less attack, has 2/2 instead of 1/1 so slightly tankier.
Replacing the Two-handed Swoardsman and Champion and upgrading from Legionary is Centurion. Again, 1 less attack but 10 more HP and still 2/2
Castle UT: “Fortifications”
Legionaries can build Forts. Forts replace Castles. 350 Stone, 100 Wood, essentially functions as a castle but has the same size and stats as a Krepost. This way it’s clear that a Roman Fort can’t compete against a Medieval Castle. Obviously requires a Fort to research it from and only functions if your Men-at-Arms are upgraded to Legionaries.
UU: Legate
Basically exactly the same as the current Centurion. You can even keep him on horseback. Just more historically accurate.
Imperial UT: “Veteran Legions”
As Legionaries and Centurions do battle, they gain stat bonuses over time. These bonuses are +5HP and +1 attack which can stack up to a limit of +50HP and +5 attack
Alt Imperial UT: “Pila”
Still using the charge up mechanic they have now, when full, Legionaries/Centurions will throw a ranged attack before then resorting to melee, making them like a temporary Throwing Axemen before closing in. The bar only charges when not in combat. You can even keep it for the Legate if you really really want.
Of course there’s no shortage of cool ideas. We could have a really really simple UT called “Aqueducts” which just decreases the cost of houses to 5 wood. You could have “Cobblestone Roads” which makes all land units move 10% faster. You could have “Auxiliaries” which allows Spears, Skirmishers and Scout Cavalry to train 80% faster. You could have “Provincial Taxation” which allows all villages to get a small trickle of gold whenever they gather a resources (other than gold.) You could have “Gladiators” which allows a new unit to be trained, similar to Flemish Militia in stats and they also come from TCs as well. Remove their team bonus and the -60% gold cost and give them a UT called “Ballistas” which doubles the scorpions attack speed. Very fast yest but remove their other BS bonuses and it should balance out. Or maybe instead of attack speed the scorpions get +6 attack, bringing them to 18. Things would hit like trucks but since we nerfed their cav and they’re an Infantry civ, onagers would still be just as a good counter.
Dude, I could do this all day! There is no shortage of cool Roman stuff that could be turned into awesome techs and bonuses
But is it the best navy in the game? I have not played against any Roman on water yet, I’m srly asking…
The way I see it, I don’t know if the +1 to galleys will be enough to take fire ships
In castle they are gonna be great because of the crown… but Vikings and Portuguese still have amazing UU on water without the need of a Castle
In Imperial romans will have -1 range