Samurai NEEDS help

Continuing the discussion from Mountain Royals Balance Changes:

(I wrote too much so I decided to start a new topic)

To further elaborate, samurai is rather awkward right now. Champions are cheaper and comparable. Requiring a castle is a big tax.

About identity: what kind of role does it really play? In practice it can rarely leverage its anti-unique unit quirk.

As an infantry with average armor, it’s questionable to make these against most archer UU (or at least reduce their effectiveness due to the need to close the distance).
For cavalry UU you only trade cost effectively as samurai… oh wait, their top tier spear-line already does that. Don’t say cataphract – even then samurai is a questionable choice hence the calls to enhance this unit.
That leaves infantry UU and a few siege UU. I guess they shine when facing a few infantry UU? (urumi being the clear exception)
Siege UU are tanky and do lots of ranged damage as they are now. So same problem as the archer UU.

So what are they good at? Actually I found them pretty good at being quickly created when there is a ram hitting my castle underneath. ngl.

For real, samurai needs serious help (not some slight cost reduction). For example, taking less bonus damage and/or less damage from UU like someone else said is a great start.

Finally, I express my cautious concern over the power creep trend in this game.

4 Likes

i do like the samurai taking reduced damage from UUs.

I’ve hypothesized in the past that you could make the samural able to switch between melee and ranged atk. Cause archers typically have low hp, i’m thinking the samurai ranged ROF would be pretty low, 3 or 4, but their atk and bonus would make their DPS reasonable against archer UUs. they’d be terrible archers vs any non UU due to their low ROF. Conversely vs infantry/cavalry, you’d be better off in melee, but you could unleash one volley as enemy UU came in, then switch to melee. Effectively a more micro intensive version of a charge attack.

1 Like

Maybe make them a unit that can get an horse and switch from infantry to cavalry? There already is a samurai cavalry as a scenario only unit that looks like an hussar however.

so like the konnik but you choose when it dis-mounts and mounts again??

Yeah that’s the idea, maybe the shift should be possible only under certain circumstances or behind a cost (unlike rathas). I foresee the criticism for it being too gimmicky or micro intensive.
But it should be more historically accurate since samurais were basically warlords who excelled in many things, even archery and horse archery for the little I know.

yeah. I personally don’t think it’s too gimmicky, but perhaps to micro intensive. Also the ratha even when in melee, for bonus damage purposes, is treated always as a cav archer. would the mounted samurai change to cavalry for bonus dmg purposes or stay as infantry. IDK which would make more sense.

Japanese both do and don’t seem like a weird civ to do this with, but maybe instead of a switching samurai, give japanese a unique upgrade to the cavalry archer. I don’t think japanese CA should be S-Tier, so it’s not a unique upgrade from the HCA, but a different CA upgrade. Honestly IDK how much I like the unique upgrades. Kinda on the fence, but that wouldn’t be unjustifiable IMO.

I think the risk with making it too good against UUs is that then it becomes even more pointless. If it’s too good of a counter, there’s no reason for the enemy to go for their UU in a lot of cases (obviously there will be some massive exceptions, like Mongols, but in general). And if the enemy doesn’t have a reason to go for their UU, there’s no reason to go for Samurai. That’s kind of the problem with their ability I think.

1 Like

They should give them a ranged gunpowder range attack since Samurai were big on using guns contrary to pop history.

IMO, remove the civ bonus and only give it to samurai, replace anti-UU with anti-cavalry. maybe +1 PA

Remove samurai

(I mean remove the infantry unit, and give Japanese something better. Scrap the UU armour class.)

I think the best solution would be to reinforce the identity of the Samurai.

Give them a unique armour class that reduces the attack damage by every unique units by 2.

That makes the Samurai a lot more resistant against ranged UUs but also helps pretty well against melee UU too.
That would likely make them cost effective against almost all UUs.

If you would just make them generally stronger then why even have the Champion still in the tech tree?

The new armour could be a replacement for their current Tower UT that doesn’t really fit the Japanese.

1 Like

I think its fine If Samurai are Just better Champions, Like Mangudai are better CA.
So Just give them +1/1 Armor and +5% movement Speed.
Not too keen on the ans switch mechanic.

2 Likes

Mounted samurai needs more help he still looks like a european hussar.

3 Likes

Even then the thing is unless like Mangudai who have the accuracy and anti siege bonus juet being slightly better isn’t enough. It’s certainly not enough for Britons to go Longbows who cost an additional Imperial Age to get 1 more range over Arbs.

Maybe make them a siege counter. So like an infantry / melee version of Mangudai. So they take 50% less damage from siege and get 100% more attack vs. siege.

1 Like

Make the Samurai like the Ratha, with ranged/melee mode.

Aaand so it’s not OP make the ranged attack something like 3-4, but with large bonus damage versus unique units?

1 Like

I’d say give them a bonus like “take -3 damage from UU”, like the current shotel warriors. That should fix most of their issues, and protect them from UU archers.

However, the devs of this game seem to dislike infantry in general, so idk if this will ever happen.

1 Like

The devs? They’ve only been buffing infantry every other patch for 2-3 years now, you can point to Ensemble Studios for how worthless infantry was in the base game.

1 Like

Because the community is pushing for it a lot, so there’s pressure on the devs. If they liked infantry, they could’ve made them viable in 6 months. Infantry is still not good, especially when you don’t have civ bonused for them, and that says a lot about the situation.

1 Like