Saracen Cavalry Archers

Both have cav archer armor class

Armor class and unit class are 2 very different things. Unit class is unique whereas a unit has many armor classes, like infantry, eagle or unique, some of which can overlap.


Imagine thinking that war wagons have no purpose.

you know the bonus still affects camels right?


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“For camels” Do I need to write explicitly everytime?

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You wrote explicitly that Indian have a food and a gold bonus just before that, so it seemed pretty obvious that you meant no eco bonus for Saracen.

You probably didn’t know the necessity and logic behind Camel building bonus of Indians. 2nd armor upgrade 15-20Knight can dive into TC to destroy it in Castle age. But Camels (also light Cav) have low base damage which is mostly canceled by armor of Building. So Camel building bonus is necessary to Camels perform as similar role of Knight to make up for their lack of entire knight line.
Receiving Seige Ram is nothing to do with the situations in Castle age.

You aren’t wrong but saracens at least have knights. Which can stop gap if you really need to perform that roll.

In imperial, saracen hussars are simply better than Indians.

And saracen FU heavy cam is still an OK-ish raider. Especially since the UT was discounted. And its at this point that their market starts to become even more effective as you have more access to wood(and sometimes food) to sell

But then i think both civs should be slightly buffed anyway… So it’s almost a moot comparison. Like comparing Italians to Koreans when they both absolutely need buffs

Alas my friend. The Indians are consistently a top 10 civ. Just like and meso civs, the recipe to play them is a bit different. But unlike the meso civs, they have the 34th spot in play rate (before LotW). Things really get crazy stating in Castle Age. That win rate may be because of their good feudal age rushes, thanks to the bonus.

They are the only civ without Knights and really have nothing close to Knights. Elephants would speed boost could have been good.

They are the only civ which has an (long term) eco bonus for a UT. But thanks to Burgandians, we have a 2nd civ now. But Burgandians also have a game plan sorted which stables + gunpowder, something which Indians struggle with.

I know the logic. But first you expect a counter unit to raid and that bonus expects you to use a counter unit to destroy TCs. I like the new bonus which makes Light Cavalry top tier, tied with the Turks. It allows them to raid much more freely and you can always mix in some siege. Okay I get, Knights can destroy TC but not many civs go Knight heavy and there are only limited examples of Knights destroying TCs (Lithuanian Knights are the most common though).

Saracens CA attack bonus vs building probably not taken away on purpose. This bonus fall through the cracks when devs balancing bonus damage of foot archer. It is sad that we lose another civ which has bonus with going CA.

Devs should fix that issue in following patches. There are also discussion on reddit page so I bump up this three.


I agree that probably the remove of the CA bonus wasn’t intentional, since it wasn’t even mentioned in the patch notes (if I’m not mistaken…).

But still, do saracens need a buff? Their market bonus and foot archers are still a super solid option. Their CA too are viable, even if they cannot one-shot farms anymore.

If saracens have to be changed, I would instead change some aspects that are rarely used, or that are weak, like madrasah UT and the mameluke cost.


I don’t think Saracens need huge buff. But they aren’t normally go cav archer and give back that bonus only marginally increase their strength. And they aren’t top tier in any map setting (Open, close, or water map), which means there are room for small buff.

I think Mamelukes are fine. They hard counter most powerful generic unit in the game (Paladin) with great mobility which can justify their cost. They are not meant to train in every situation, just have to train in right situation in some civ matchups. Civ like Bulgarians, Spanish, Cumans, Magyars or Slavs can’t deal with mamelukes.
Madrash is useless in most of the time but it fits their historical identity, and their monk rush is solid without them. So I don’t think Madrash UT need much change.

Madrasah is useless most of the time, but fine.
Alright. When you feel you have too much advantage over your opponent you might burn 200F 100G to balance things out.


I don’t think it is fair to call it a “buff” to give back an identity level bonus that they had for 20 years that was lost by mere brain fart. I think it is fair to call the current behavior a bug.


That bonus didn’t make much anyway, and since they are getting away the more than they can from having anti-building archers, it may be that it’s not a bug, and that it was intentional. Maybe the error, was simply not mention in the patch notes.

I don’t think anyway that it’ll come back, but anyway it won’t make much of a difference.

Yeah, except that camel did exactly what you stated while also being cheaper and trained at a stable.

I’m not saying that we need to make the mamelukes cost half gold, but maybe 5 gold less, maybe 10 if it’s still not enough.

You can give them a monastery tech that it’s not useless, so it would still fit their historical identity.

Like, make monks 33% cheaper instead of having them return the cost, and make the tech cost just food and wood.

It’s still not useful for monk rush, but at least if you need to add monks in the late game it may become useful.