Saracens Madrasah buff

Madrasah current effect: (Monks return 33% of their cost when killed)

Preferred effect: Madrasah (Monks and Camel units return 33% of their cost when killed)


Madrasah doesn’t need a buff nor a nerf, it’s far from a tweak, it deserves a whole rework.

besides that getting 33% Camel gold discount is too OP, and above all it encourages Noobism, you rather want to micro your units.


I would rather Madrasah gives you gold for each successful conversion.


UT for monks are a waste of space imho.
If you go for a monk rush you don’t have time for castle, if you wait for a castle you’re too late for monk rush.
Remove Inquisition, Madrasah and Orthodoxy and make them either passive bonuses or rework them into something more useful.
That I’d like.


Yeah sadly this is the case 99% of the time. Only thing I can think of to make these more useful is to allow monk UTs to be researched in the monastery.

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Inquisition is good since it helps your monks in an actually meaningful way. Orthodoxy monks still die too fast and madrasah only does something when something you don’t want to happen, happens.


Camels are going to die when fighting paladins, might as well increase their viability, even if it means viability after death.

You’re playing a civ that gives them a ton more HP, so they will die less than those of other civs, so why give them the refund effect?


It makes more sense than the effect only being towards their monks, and it doesn’t help them field more at the start, so let it be an investment of a useless bonus into a better one upon failure, and a failure that makes sense, such as losing camels which are counterable fairly easily. Yes, the main goal is to not die, but this gives the tech an actual reasonable benefit to the civ that won’t always build a bunch of monks yet most certainly will build a good amount of camels, be they be heavy camels or mamelukes.

They literally have extra 30 hp on their camels, which means they have extra viability as is. And honestly paladin is more of a team game unit, which means saracens should be going arbs.

Im 1v1 170 hp camels are going to wreck cavalier so hard its not even funny.

I think this tech needs change but making it affect their camels isnt the answer.


i think of all the things it should NOT affect, is camels

the civ already has so much leaning on camels/mamelukes. if anything i would like to see it specialise in something else on top of this

for example, we have franks that are amazing at knights, but then their civ bonus and UU/UT are geared to castles and a UU that counters the thing that counters their knights

whereas we have saracens with FU camels(which already sets them apart from the majority of civs), a civ bonus for camels, a camel UU, a UT that boosts monks (which counter knights, which the camels already counter) then we have a camel only UT on top of all of that

literally just camels, which as it stands are a fairly niche unit. and now you want to change their 2nd UT to affect camels.

like if you said lets make the camel UT boost their PA or bonus against vils or something, anything to make the camels more flexible or special i would say yeah maybe. but i dont think a refund is anything to write home about

if we are reworking UTs i would hope to make them at least a little interesting


Since Saracens also represent Egypt, we could also replace:

“Madrasah (200f, 100g): Monks return 33% of their cost upon death”


“Afterlife (550g): Monks get +3 range”. (and remove BBC from tech tree)

Or, if we want a troll tech with niche utility:

“Madrasah (600g): Monks gets +6 range to convert buildings/rams/trebs”

Or, since Madrasah means school, we could change the effect to:

“Madrasah (200f, 400w): Monks are produced 100% faster”

Generally speaking, because they are so heavily bent towards camels, to a degree, they are also easily countered. Yes they have other options, but because camels are their main gig and the main thing that will be automatically countered, it’s alright for them to have two techs geared towards their camels. And this second tech(madrasah the first in question) would be not something that improves functionality nor survivability on the battlefield, but, instead, it provides a third of a second chance to improvise further based on enemy composition after being countered, and it only takes effect when taking bad or for the better ‘necessary’, even if they are bad, fights essentially.

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To anyone who things madrasah is garbage:

You are likely looking at it conditional on not having to change your behavior. But thats not how you optimize, you change your behavior if the combo of options + new behavior leads to a better outcome.

The primary value of madrasah is the ability to use monks in imp without bleeding as much gold. Saracens also have extra gold at the market, and can capture around 2-3k if they decide to go gold-heavy and sell earlier than the opponent.

Want to convert hussite wagons, elephants, cav UU, siege in general? Go ahead, the sustainability of monks jumps 50% with this tech.

Madrasah is better than any insurance contact you could ever hope to recieve IRL. It lets saracens use more monks than anyone bar Bohemians.

Nobody is going to use monks in imperial age in team games.
Madrasah or not.

Too much micro and too large armies.
Maybe for 1v1 could be borderline viable, but for team games this tech is a wasted slot.


Monk rush accompany with Forward castle and fast Imp is not that uncommon in 1v1 Arena. You eventually need treb or BBC to take down enemy’s defensive building. Inquisition is situationally useful that it can actually improve your monk meaningfully.

Instead of insisting Monk UT is all useless and replacing it to improve just knight/camel/archer etc, I want to make monk UT more useful to encourage using monk.


Its not like monks are somehow unusable for stopping a “deathball” of elephants or war wagons or things like that in team games.

And in imp monks paired into groups of 2-3 are still effective with theocracy and block printing vs many targets. Its also remarkably pop efficient.

Its really more of a problem that monks and hotkey micro is clumsy. Players either need mouse hotkeys or production on the f row and idk how many players are willing to do that just for the sake of monks. Plus the distribution of monks into X groups is a pain.

If there was a keybinding to split units into X groups and assign those groups to hotkeys 1-X, monks would see a lot more use. Can limit X so its not OP for higher skilled players.

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Madrasah: Monks can convert building from range (Redemption is required)


Since Madrasahs were centers of islamic education for the masses regardless of whether they were warriors or peasants, how about adding the following effect to Madrasah?

“Civilian and Millitary units trained 20% faster”

This would make it like a weaker second conscription, but also unique in that it affects Siege units, Monks and Villagers as well, affecting the entire society. And might I add, make it also historically accurate.

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Your “weaker” conscription would allow Saracens to have all those “unit type X produced faster” TBs at once AND produce vills as fast as Persians do in imperial age. Hardly unique nor weak.