Separate TG rank queue and the elo from Duo and Solo

I think this is an example of trying to find a purely technical/IT solution to a problem when there isn’t one. Game just needs to be better at bringing people together to form teams. Jumping into a team game in a strategy game solo will remain “unfair” even if you manage to split premades and solo’s somehow. Why? Because you’ll never have a guarantee of consistent randoms. I tried to play with randoms out of curiosity recently. Yeah, it’s awful. No way to come up with a strategy and cohesive team play in some of the games, because some players don’t speak any of the languages that I do. In some games, the opposite, everyone is talkative and we have a more or less cohesive team work (so if the other team isn’t able to communicate, they’re very likely to lose, even if individual player skill levels are even)… Oh, and then there are just some people that are toxic and have no concept of team work even if they are capable of communicating.

(I know there is also the occasional problem of badly matched teams in terms of elo gaps, but that’s probably worth a thread/discussion of its own)

A good match making system will have this as goal. Only for the top (higher win rates) or bottom (lower win rates) are some exceptions.

You already know my opinion why this is currently not the case. I dont think i have to repeat it.

Yes, unfortunately got to meet him in TG yesterday 11. He got crazy value from his initial scout.

But the system does not have time to adapt to all circumstances created by a TG. If playing 1v1 you need 20 games to reach your “true Elo”, how many will you need until your Premade is properly rated? What happends if you play 2-3 games with player A, then 2-3 games with player B, then 5 games with players CED… Your Elo is never really “true”.

I can play with a 2k friend today, a 2k5 tomorrow, a 3k the next day and then a 1500. It will be constantly chasing after…

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That is the main difficulty of team games compared to 1v1. No matter what system you uses to rate / match people, 1v1 will always be more accurate compared to team games. In team games you have much more variables. Just the discussion of a 1k + 2k rated player = 2x 1.5k rated player is balanced, is already a though discussion. That shows how difficult it is to balance team games (especially with big elo gaps in a team).

this is a 8 solo players game.
the avg elo different is 122
I really dont understand why the system can’t just balanced the elo more evenly.

I have looked at this game too and assuming you are right and it was 8 solo, i havent checked this part then this game could have been balanced otherwise. I came up with two teams with avg elo difference of 4. That is a lot closer. Things like these are thing that should be improved by the devs. In many games you can end up with much closer teams (based on the average) as you get.

You also spotted that if two playerse are a premade in a 4v4, then they also get two equally skilled players to fill up the team to 4, while the 4 enemies somethings have a lower rating. As result you get 4x 2800 (with a premade of 2) vs 4x 2500 solo, while you also could have 2x 2800 premade + 2x 2500 solo vs 2x 2800 solo + 2x 2500 solo. You already give such example in this thread, isnt it? That is another example of unbalanced teams, while the game could be more balanced.

yes defintely what I want to say here.

I am just curious this should be happened to lots of other players too.
As my experience thought I dont encounter this encounter issue very much, but defintely not less as I remember.
I am suprised that no one here raising out this issue.

This is not a stat. Stats are about what’s already happened, and we are talking about the way things are going to happen now with this change.
Now, the sum of elo variation is 0, which means that when rating will be close to stabilized, most players will have winrate close to 50% (at least for the most recent games). This will be the case both for solo players and premade teams.

dude, do you know the elo variation and the win rate doesnt have a direct relation?
even right now the 2 sides game elo variation is the same, it doesnt mean that players win rate will be balanced.

With new system, rating will tend to stabilize, because of global 0 variation on every game. Then, the mathematical expected value of a variation on every match will get closer to 0. That’s a huge improvement on what happened before, but it will need some time and games played to stabilize.

The last issues are smurfs, and huge difference of rating in a same team.

if you look into the top 100 of Team random ranking list.
most of them are having 70% win rate and no one doing solo queue (you can check the history)
it’s a fact that everyone knows doing solo in TG is kind of a suicide action when facing premate team.
I am kind of surprised people are taking advantages and not admit they are having these.

for my experience, I do 90% solo queue.
for the 10% of premate team, I usually win those solo team without any difficulties.

come on, let’s be rational?

I am going to mark out every single TG I played and listed out the unfair point I mentioned above

My Favorite map is always Arabia.

Game1: Lost
map: Crossroad
my team: 4 solo (elo difference: -109)
Opponent: 2 solo + duo (elo difference: +109)
Summary: elo not balanced, duo team, 8P solo ranking is 1900 up, but that’s another issue, whatever my side would be lost, but the players matching is bad. They could have balance up the different.

Game2: Lost
map: Arena
my team: 4 solo (elo difference: -34)
Opponent: premade team (elo difference: +34)
Summary: solo vs premade team, we should win our side, but 5P 7P is dead too easily, what I blame is the premade advantages

Game3: Lost
map: Afracia
my team: 4 solo (elo difference: -86)
Opponent: 2 solo + 2 duo (elo difference: +86)
Summary: solo vs duo team, unblanced elo matching my civ was countered by my nearby opponent 4p, and I think he’s a half smurf account, his real elo should be higher as his winrate is now 66%

Game4: Win
map: Afracia
my team: 4 solo (elo difference: -54)
Opponent: 4 solo (elo difference: +54)
Summary: solo vs solo, elo different -54, fine to me. I m just wondering why my team’s elo always the lower side

If you play Solo your limit would be around 2700-2800 unless you like the painful matches, players above that rank are stackers, despite their low ranks in 1x1, playing together and controlling the maps they want to play allows them to boost their rank to 3k and more, that clearly shows how huge is the impact of premades.

I know that splitting the queue would be bad given the small size of our community, but removing the control of premades over the maps could be a good start, but honestly the only way to have fair team games is going back to the lobby system so you can chose the map and the allies, if the game was even then you will have another 2 more games with the same players, so that compensates the time during the waiting room compared to the altf4 matches.

yes, totally agree what you said.
What I feel mad here is people knowing the fact from their heart and deny it by their words.
which makes me feel disgusting.

Game5: Win
map: Afracia
my team: 4 solo (elo difference: +127)
Opponent: 4 solo (elo difference: -127)
Summary: solo vs solo, elo different 127? I believe a 8 solo players pool can have a better team distribution. This game is kind of one sided.

so, right now in 5 games

my favoured map Arabia = 0%
all my teammates are solo VS duo / premade team win rate = 0%

Game6: Win
map: Team Moats
my team: 1 solo (I am the solo) + 3 premade (elo difference: +129)
Opponent: 1 solo + 3 premade (elo difference: -129)
Summary: elo difference, nothing special, one sided game