Rather, let’s give sheep and herdables their very own civ, strictly animals-only allowed, put it into a neat dlc package called the '“Sheep Strike back!”. No longer shall they live enslaved under the tyrannical yolk of their masters, forced to scout when it suits them or provide nourishment for their advancement. Rise up wool lovers!
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Lol, you shouldn’t joke like that around me 
You know I want a pig bear civ (New Civ ideas), right? 
Pig bear civ vs. gaia and sheep civ. Interesting…
What are you gonna ask for next, that villagers cannot build buildings by just banging a point with a hammer?
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I see threads like this as an exciting thought experiment - never know what you might learn or what you can contribute! Things get boring if we all agree on everything all the time, which, thankfully, will never happen! 
Cheers!
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Yep, exactly. Not a bad idea, actually… 
Or, more likely, your next words will try to de-legitimize the request by way of some other logical fallacy instead of the strawman fallacy that you used in your first attempt. At least stay on-point 
Thanks NuclearMoose64! Yep, people would actually have to create units to explore faster (an econ hit), or leverage existing units (if using villagers, an econ hit), or live with a darkened map a while longer (cool, more surprises for you and your enemy await). Part of the enjoyment of the game, for me anyways, is the unknown dark areas and revealing them in a more realistic manner… surveying them out. Sorry for having the gall to think human units exploring is more realistic, appropriate, and fun than sheep. Why people rejoice with sheep cartographers is beyond me 
And how this also has an element of nostalgic attachment is also beyond me.
I see it as a good thing that I’m not, essentially, turning on a light bulb over the map with cheat units – err, I mean sheep.
That’s not a good reason.
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Yep, exactly. Not a bad idea, actually
fallacy that you used in your first attempt. At least stay on-point
Either I was right or I committed a fallacy, make up your mind. You can’t have your cake and eat it.
AoE2 is AoE2 and has been since the 90s. If you want to change it fundamentally you’d be better off making a new separate game instead. It doesn’t make sense that villagers can read the overlord’s mind and know what to do, they should come back to the Town Centre and stay there for 20 seconds to get order debriefing etc. There is an endless flow of changes to make the game realistic. I think most people are fine with AoE2 not being 100% realistic (when I say most people I am making a gross assumption. I personally think it is fine and I have not conducted a large scope survey to confirm if others agree with me, you are free to do that to prove my assumption wrong if you want). I don’t have anything against there being a game like aoe2 but realistic but that shouldn’t be at the expense of the aoe2 I know and love. If you want that hyper realistic aoe2 game then feel free to make that game.
Ok, I’m going to throw my two cents worth in here, feel free to disagree.
I’ve been playing age of empires since the 90s, and there have been certain points within my “history” of playing the game where I have learned new things that have helped push my level of play to the next level of competition. Examples such as: building multiple town centers, building multiple military buildings so that you produce more troops simultaneously, learning how to do a FC build order, learning Flush build orders, learning the hotkeys, pushing deer, garrisoning villagers instead of ringing the town bell, quick walling etc (you get the idea).
I would say that I would include “scouting with sheep” as one of those “aha!” moments that greatly helped me in the early game especially.
Now to your statement, I think we need to consider the purpose of Age of Empires, and whether or not this change would help accomplish, or hinder that purpose.
I believe that the purpose of AoE is a Real Time Strategy game to defeat your enemy (whether through conquest, wonder victory, etc.). As a player, you want to get as quickly as you can from starting point A, to point B where you can begin enacting that specific strategy to defeat your opponent.
Where the majority of players get their enjoyment from the game is not building a city simulator (where to build my summer home or place of learning), struggles against the elements (fighting wildlife or weather), or attempting lengthy diplomatic dialogue with someone to acquire goods for your civilization (through complex trading or other means).
The majority of players get their enjoyment from the game by being able to wield massive armies to crush their opponents, or outmaneuvering an unwieldy opponent with quick micro and thus getting the upper hand, or quickly booming through the ages to accomplish some objective (such as building a wonder or collecting relics).
When you make a change, such as removing discovered line of sight by sheep scouting, you hinder a player from getting to point B. Albeit, you have made the game less enjoyable because it now takes longer to get to the point where the player enjoys the game the most.
Now, is this a bad idea? I would say no. However, I think that this is a suggestion would be a better fit for another game where the purpose is different, and the majority of players would appreciate the added focus on realism.
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Ahh, I wish I could! For sure. Maybe one of these days
I enjoy the whole game and like that there are, essentially, seasons… figuratively speaking. The first season being slow and arduous because you are starting your empire from absolute scratch from three villagers.
Why shouldn’t it be a little slow, painstaking, and harrowing in the start? Well, I know from your post people just want to get to point B; as if Point A is almost some boring waste of time they wish they could skip over. If that’s the case, you have the option to give yourself more resources and start in a different age from the lobby, right? Regardless, without a reference to a poll, I think it’s just your assumption that only a small minortiy likes the first season of gameplay. You may be going from skewed observations. I reckon there are a lot of multiplayer players in the forum and not as many singleplayer ones. A lot of them probably want pure fighting action as soon as possible. As well, obviously, most streamers want action, action, action for their streams… and they are in the public eye.
So, as a percent of AoE players, you might be hearing a skewed voice publicly… unless you’ve seen or created a statistically valid poll to understand how all players want to play and what they’d like to see, and what they don’t like that you can point me to? You may very well be correct, but it’s just a hunch, imo. In which case, my hunch that a lot of players don’t want sheep cartography, or don’t even know it exists and their enemies are cheating with sheep… errr, using sheep against them
If devs make the AI start exploring with sheep for single player games, I will definitely have much less desire to play the game. Hopefully it’s not already done. It does beg the question, though… if it is such a valid mechanic, why wouldn’t the AI do it? sigh
not if you played the game for 20 years, i’d love the change in aoe4 but even the post creator has said that it’s probably too late to change it
Since when something is a cheat that is used maybe in the first 5 mins and has a huge risk of losing your sheep?
The second one was a mistake? Need I say more?\
Nitpicking because there are no issues with the game atm in your opinion?
I actually hope this topic was sarcastic…
Ah, I see that I should clarify as to which part of the game I am discussing.
I believe that this change should not be made for the multiplayer portion of the game.
If you wanted to make a custom scenario or campaign that had this feature - I think that would be awesome.
Not saying that this couldn’t be changed; but at this point, when you have had a game that has been in existence for so long and the game just works - the burden of proof should be on why should we change it? as appose to why shouldn’t we. Accordingly, as I stated above, I believe that this change would be against the spirit of what the game is attempting to accomplish.
I didn’t say that this was a part of the game to be skipped over. On the contrary, it is a critical part to be learned and mastered. However, to lengthen this process, I believe, would prolong the time before the player gets to one of the more enjoyable parts of the game for most. I say most because of what I know based on my years of playing the game, the online community (forums, streamers, etc.), and the Steam statistics: where out of everyone who has played the game - the campaign with the highest completion rate (ignoring the William Wallace Learning Campaign) is only Joan of Arc with 4.7% ( Global Gameplay Stats Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition ). According to steamdb there are approximately 680,000-790,000 people who own the game. Out of that number of people - only 4.7% have finished that one campaign. The next highest is El Cid with 3.8%, and it keeps going lower from there.
Now that is not a knock against the incredible campaigns and custom scenarios that are available. They are awesome and I have greatly enjoyed quite a few of them. I would also daresay that a great many other people do as well. However, I think it is safe to say that the majority of people play AoE for the multiplayer experience - which in that context, I don’t think it would be a good idea to remove the ability to scout with sheep.
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I enjoy the whole game and like that there are, essentially, seasons… figuratively speaking. The first season being slow and arduous because you are starting your empire from absolute scratch from three villagers.
Why shouldn’t it be a little slow, painstaking, and harrowing in the stsrt? Well, I know from your post people just want to get to point B; as if Point A is almost some boring waste of time they wish they could skip over.
It’s interesting since you were in favor of auto scout.
No offense but every time that I read your responses you sound more like a melancholic guy that’s triggered just for the Auto-Explore feature, any player have freedom to use it or not and that not kills the game spirit, and is like the first only feature added that truly automatized a game thing…
I really don’t care about any other “auto” thing since I don’t play that competitively, just for fun and to have a nice time in this grim year (but I agree that any further new one is dangerous).
Fair points all around, SlyfoxLegend. Thanks for sharing them! One quick note, though, is that I rarely play campaigns, yet I’ve played a lot of single-player vs. AI over the years. This ‘might’ constitute a large swath of the players or single-player gamers? What I mean is that campaign stats probably don’t tell the whole tale, and maybe not that well of tale, of how many single-player players there are. But it’s okay; I totally understand what you’re saying
It could be dangerous; never know. Given the lifecycle of the product at this point, I shall concede since not too many are down with the risk of changing, or not down with altering their own gameplay style they’ve grown accustomed to. I trust it can and will be addressed in AoE IV
Yeah, and if a player likes one thing in particular, they must like all things remotely related to that one thing. And if you like one automization or thing that helps you explore, you must like them all. Can’t have nuanced opinions, apparently
Definitely was sarcastic (if you’re referring to the strawman argument about villagers not being able to build from a point with a hammer); thus, the ‘rolleyes’ smiley face I had put. If, on the other hand, you’re referring to my OP about how sheep shouldn’t be scouts, then I’m not sarcastic about that.
Why is that safe to say. Please back up that statement with some facts. Have you done a research on the subject? Any poll results you can show? And, What does that have to do with sheep scouting? Or is that just another “safe to say” thing? Its ok to have an opinion but its just your opinion, not anyone elses, unless you done some serious research on the subject.
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