As a Platinum-ranked player, I believe that China seems overly weak in this version of the game. After the nerfs to chemistry, infantry, and NoB, China seems to lack powerful units during Age III and Age IV. Compared to similar civilizations like Zhu Xi, ZhugeNu also appear quite underpowered. I’m now even unsure how China can win matches against civilizations like Zhu Xi, OTD, and Abbas after 20 mins. I hope to hear the understandings of players from different ranks on whether China needs to be buffed.
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Im a Chinese main (Silver/Gold) i unterstand ur point, i have the feeling that Chinese Units have a leak of specialness in comparision to ZXL. I wish those two would be diffent. Every time i think abaout it i conclude that ZXL has the same eco but other landmark and stronger Units (Imperial Guards, Zuge Nu, Palaceguards are tankier from China but deal more damage from ZXL, ZXL has better Granadiers). The points where China has better Units is HC (but ZXL has Better X-Bows) and firelancers)
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Yes, they should make China very strong, but add a civ that counters it and call it USA. For balance purposes.
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lol 
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As a diamond player, I agree, Chinese is very weak in comparison to its variant this season.
Well, I think Zhu Xi is fun because it’s a civ showing off a lot of the theoretical and experimental Chinese weapons from the Middle Ages, including infantry fire lances (Roar of the Dragon), Shaolin monks, fragmentation bomb ammo (Cloud of Terror), or special grenades (Hard Cased Bombs)…
The problem is that it does so at the expense of being a “better version” of China, were “You don’t even need to unlock the dynasty to get the unique units”: Let’s break it down:
1.- Chinese Archers vs Chuge-nu
Is there any point in having Chinese archers instead of chu-ku-nus? Does anyone use them?
First, you have to understand why it exists:
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Season 1, The reason: When the game came out, and in Season 1, the Chinese only had “1” dynasty unit unlocked at a time. That is, you couldn’t have Fire Lancer and Chukunus. So you either decided to stay in Song for the rest of the game to use Chukunu, or you lost them in Imperial Age. This was because for balance, China had more unique units than other civs, and they thought that “Limiting” their available units would be fair to the rest of civs… but that didn’t last.
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Season 3, The change: Already from the 3rd season, with Ottomans with 4 unique units and Mali with 6, and the addition of several unique units in the 5th season for the rest of civs, the limit of units per civ was lost, and now the Chinese could have all the chukunu they wanted until Imperial Age. EVERYONE HAPPY!, but the Chinese archer lost its original function.
2.- The Chinese grenadier
Unlocked in Imperial Age only if you build 2 expensive landmarks, and for what? They lack the Hard Cased Bombs technology, so they are an inferior version to Zhu Xi’s, in a later age, and on top of that difficult to unlock.
The unit is good, it is the Chinese Area unit, most civs have one (FRE, OTT, ENG: Ribauldoquin, Delhi: War Elephant, HRE: Landknecht, etc), but precisely because they “require” an area unit, it should not be so difficult to unlock, and even less if there is a better version with its variant.
3.- Differences between father and son
I remember when the devs started calling the vanilla civ “Fathers”, what memories.
The thing is that China, as a Father civ, has many defects compared to its Son, instead of differences.
In comparison, to differentiate JoanDArc from the French had to spend a long time, before they were almost equal. Over time, 4 positive differences accumulated, and no negative ones:
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French
– Melee attack technologies of blacksmith are free. (+)
– Keeps are 10% cheaper (+)
– Keeps have a influence bonus with Stables and Archery range units, discount 20% of their cost. (+)
– Villagers are produced very fast. (+) -
Shared
– Trader economic mechanic
– Economic technologies discount -
JoanDArc
– Has an hero, and every other mechanic is around her, including: unit discount, improves construction, etc. (+++)
Like you can see, every bonus is different, and not a better version of another. Now compare ZhuXi with China civs:
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Zhu Xi
– Better early bonus (Tang Dinasty) with cheaper Landmarks (+)
– Has Early Palace Guard (II) (+)
– Dont neet to unlock units from Song Dinasty (Zhuge Nu), and Unique Tech. (++)
– Has better early Grenadier with Unique Tech (++)
– Can unlock Shaolin Monks (++)
– Can unlock 2 cavalry unique units in imperial age. (++)
– Can have 6 officials with a Landmark technology (++)
– Can unlock their own version of fire lancer with spearmans and horsemans (++)
– OP landmarks (=)
– Nest of Bees and Grenadier with better range (+1) for Temple of the Sun (IV) (++) -
Shared:
– Naval bonus: 10% speed in ship construction
– Construction bonus
– Free chemistry, but without extra 20% normal attack, dont have any use in early ages. (-/+) -
China
– Need to wait to Castle Age to get Palace Guard (III) (-)
– Need two landmarcks to unlock Zhuge Nu (IV), without any Unique Technology (- -)
– Need two landmarcks to unlock Grenadier (IV), and without any Unique Technology (- -)
– Don´t have any new unit unlocked by Imperial Age (–).
– Nest of Bees with unique technology. (+)
– Fire Lancer (III), optional unlocking. (+)
– Handcannoner has unique tech (+)
– OP landmarks (=)
– Have archers… (–)
Discussion: As we can see, the only positive differences between China over Zhu Xi are in gunpowder units, but its not enough because Zhu Xi has is own parallel bonus for that (+1 range gunpowder units, Temple of the Sun).
In any case, everything has a solution, and it is not nerfs, since it is not that Zhu Xi is broken, but that her parent variant needs some bonus.
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You totally won, son. Congratulations on you.
I totally agree, a Unit that require 2 Imperial Landmarks should be stronger or at least as good as a Unit that u get without doing anything in Castle. I think it would be cool if the Spiritway had unique Techs to improve Firelancer, Zuge Nu, Grenadier, Palaceguards and Nest of Bees.
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What a detailed and pertinent reply. This is why I post on the forum. 
What did I win? 
YES. If it takes 2 landmarks (a lot of resources) to get into the Yuan or Ming dynasty, then it should be strong enough in Age III or Age IV, otherwise the resources invested in the dynasty system are pointless. However I think China is just very weak in this version in Age III and Age IV. 
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Everything meaningful that China can do, ZXL can do better. That is what makes it this a failed variant.
Want to boom? ZXL can produce cheaper TCs which spawn a free villager, and have cheaper farms.
Want to go Castle fast? ZXL has cheaper landmarks and can pump superior Monks for relic gathering immediately. Their Knights also have 20 percent more damage.
Want to rush? ZXL had immediate access to ZGN and Palace Guard already in Feudal.
Individually, ZXL units are also better. The Official has all sorts of technologies. ZGN has multiple upgrades that makes them insane in Imperial. Even Grenadier is available in Castle with a tech that enhances everyone. Hell, if you want fast Palace Guard, ZXL can just rush Imperial instead of wasting resources on another Castle Landmark.
What is China meant to be better at? I guess they have better Landmarks. But, the civilization very much feels like it got overrided by ZXL. I suppose China can boom slightly better, but they are far less flexible.
When I think of China in AoE4, it is a wide-area damaging civilization. Instead of opting into specialized tools to deal with a specific problem, they utilize general tools that is good for all sorts of jobs. Whether they are Archers or MAA, they both equally should fall to Nest of Bees, Fire Lancers and Grenadiers.
So, I say, double down on that fantasy. Right now, ZXL has the same fantasy, better options and better units.
3 Likes
I think Chinese siege units were more powerful than Zhu Xi’s in the last version, but Season 9 nerfed the siege units and added new tech to Zhu Xi, resulting in China underperforming Zhu Xi’s almost entirely. But I don’t think Zhu Xi is overpowered because there are even stronger camels and elephants, which makes China look very weak in comparison. 
Here is a Idea how China could become diffrent. Before reading it: DISCLAIMER: it is only an Idea! Valoues and Funktions are mostly not there!
Extendet Dynasties:
Now China has Extended Dynasties, those are unlocked by building a additional landmark after reaching a dynastie. Those landmark cost 50% more and can be build after a the dynastie is unlocked. Example:
After reaching Song you can build a 3 feudalage landmark and unlock extendet Song Dynastie. Once the extendet Dynastie is reached the bonuses of the dynasties are keept, even though you reached a other dynastie.
Extended Dynasties:
Tang: Line of sight from outpost, keeps and town centers is increast by 20%
Song: The produktion speed is increast by 30%
Yuan: Increases Gatherrate by 15%
Palaceguards armor increast by 1
Ming: Increases Attackspeed by 15%
Unlocks new Unit
New landmarks:
Age1:
Name: (Idk)
Cost:
400Food
200Gold
100Wood
150Stone
Funktion:
Second landmark Tc. Same stats as TC
Age2:
Name: (Idk)
Cost:
600Food
300Gold
Funktion:
Age3:
Name:
Cost:
1800Food
900Gold
Funtion:
Age4:
Name:
Cost:
3600Food
1800Gold
New Unit:
Name:
Cost:
240Food
120Gold
Hp: 150
Armor: 0
Range: 6tiels
Attacksspeed:3sek.
Damage:
15 (Siege)
+15 vs Heavy
3 Burst attacks.
(Crossbow versuon of a Zuge Nu)
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I completely agree with your idea. China, as a civilization relying on infantry and siege weapons, is too weak in the current version. The 4V4 winning rate in Conqueror is even less than 40%. She must be buffed.
3 Likes
Proposed solutions:
- Add new units to Chinese Civ, either in Feudal Age or Imperial Age. Maybe as replacement for Dinasty Unlocked units, while Chu Ku nu (III) and Grenadier (IV) would become “normal” unit of the chinese roster.
Chinese Grenadier —> changed from being the unit unlocked by Ming Dinasty, replaced by another. Available in Imperial Age
Chu ku nu —> changed from being the unit unlocked by Song Dinasty, replaced by another. Available in Feudal Age.
Replacements
Rattan soldier (II)
Medium melee infantry (neither heavy nor light) armed with a sword and a rattan shield. Good against ranged units. Cheap, and fast, but loses to heavy cavalry and heavy infantry units. Similar to Freeborn Warrior (Mali).
Hp: 100/125/150, Attack: 6/8/10, Bonus vs Rang: +3/+4/+5, Armor: 0/2 → 0/3 → 0/5, Rof: 1.25, Speed: 1.50 (very fast)
Lang Xian pikeman (IV)
Light melee infantry support unit, with a tree-like spear, with area damage and causes “attack speed and speed reduction” in every enemy units it hits. Excellent aggainst cavalry, to which it has some extra damage.
Hp: 130, Attack: 10, Bonus vs Cav: +15, Area:0.25, Rof: 2.125, Range:1,00, Speed: 1.125 (Slow),
Branched: Units impacted by Lang Xian gets 15% attack speed reducction and 20% speed reduction by 3 seconds.
History: The Lang Xian was a tipe of modified chinese spear, with many branches in the pole and blades attached to the branches. It was probably an invention of the Chinese general Qi Jiguang of the Ming Dynasty, who described it in his manual titled Jixiao Xinshu.This weapon was well suited for defense, as it would be difficult for an opponent to assault the wielder without risking contact with the blades. Was used as a anti-cavalry weapon, and was specially required for the Mandarine Duck Formation aggainst the Wukou Pirates, mainly to jam enemy weapons in the branches and prevent the enemy from getting close to other units of the formation, being a excellent support weapon.
With those units we could make a properly “Mandarin Duck Formation”, with a rattan shielder in the front.
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I would say that before this patch zhu xi lacked its own identity, it was supposedly a cav civ but had no bonus to most of the cav, despite it specializing in zhuge nu they were exactly the same as the chinese zhuge nu. For so long china was just a better version of ZXL.
Now with the changes, they are more different.
China remains the best booming civ with the song dynasty faster training villagers and the defensive landmark the barbican. They also have the best NoB’s as always and the best HC’s and palace guards.
ZXL now has better cav, not quite as good boom but they do have a smoother boom with cheap tc’s and farms.
With a surprisingly low win rate, it seems that China’s performance in high rank 4v4 can be described as dismal.
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You seem to have a good understanding of China’s weapon culture and history 
.
I think if they could add a technology to China in Age IV, for example, increasing the damage of units using gunpowder by 20%（chemistry in the previous version), it would be a distinctive improve method compared to ZXL.
I agree with you that these two civilizations have more distinct personalities, which is a good thing . However, this does not contradict his point that China’s performance in this version is inferior to Zhu Xi’s.
In the Platinum tier, my most frequent strategy with China is to enter the Song Dynasty and establish 2TC, which provides a strong economy but results in an age lag . This means (1) I will lag behind in monks, and (2) I will have to use feudal units to counter heavy armored units. Smart opponents will exploit the gap period when I’m go to Age III to launch large-scale attacks, but a disappointing fact is that the current version of NoB hardly supports the victory of my frontline troops.
If you choose not to enter the Song Dynasty and instead directly go castle in the Tang Dynasty to rush your opponent, then why not choose Zhu Xi, who can enter Age III faster and boasts better cava and ranged units in Age III ?
If you decide not to enter Age III and instead use ZGN in Age II to rush your opponent, China needs to spend 600 resources to enter the Song Dynasty, but Zhu Xi doesn’t. This indicates that Zhu Xi is more efficient.
I don’t think China has good units in the 3rd and 4th ages in this version. 
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The 2tc song boom should be match up dependent, you don’t want to blindly do that every game.
If you go FC you still want to go song first just not 2tc, this gives you added protection from the barbican and you still out eco the opponent with your faster training vills despite going FC.
Same with Zhuge nu rush, the advantage china has is you can still out eco from song bonus while going full zhuge nu rush.