Looking at Spirit of the Law’s video on the Battle for Greece naval changes, I’d like to hear your thoughts on whether or not the changes should be applied to regular play.
Personally, I think they should. Water matches are very bland in regular AoE2 play, as the alleged triangle of counters doesn’t hold up in practice due to Demo Ships being far too impractical. The lack of a good ranged splash option (no pun intended) also hurts, as Dromons are only available in Imperial Age (by which point most water matches are already decided), not available to all civs, and are only so-so as a Mangonel substitute.
But, in particular, I think the Ramming Ship is something that’s desperately needed. A naval melee option would give players a real counter to Fire Galley spam and make things actually dynamic in Feudal Age. Plus, if the Fire Galleys have a real hard-counter, they can finally afford to be buffed since they wouldn’t be oppressive anymore.
The only problem I see is that players are used to how water maps are played in the base game, and performing such a huge overhaul would force them to relearn it. It would also make it trickier to build up your infrastructure since you’d have two types of naval facilities to construct, making it take longer to get military out. I think it’s worth it, though, for the sake of making water matches actually enjoyable.
Of course, I don’t think it should be carbon-copied from the DLC to the base game, but it could still be adjusted as needed to work better in the base game. That would require a bit of testing by the devs, but I trust they can get the balance right.
So, what do you think? Should the naval changes from the DLC be applied to the base game?
I like the idea of the Onager ship particularly.
It is not good against buildings, it doesn’t even outrange towers, but it’s a good counter to massed Galleons on the late game.
Currently massed Galleons counter everything (besides a few unique ships).
But I don’t think it should be copied from Chronicles because Chronicles is about ancient warfare not medieval warfare.
AoE2 should have more medieval aspects like more cannons or arquebus on ships. For example a ship that fires a volley of bullets like an Organ Gun.
Sure, carbon-copying the Chronicles ships might not entirely fit, but at the very least there needs to be a ship available in Feudal (other than the Demo Raft) that hard-counters Fire Galleys and gets countered by regular Galley-line ships. A melee-range “ramming ship” could work (if not necessarily the Monoreme) because a lot of ship-to-ship combat in the medieval era was done via grappling and boarding.
I have some ideas for a water rework but I want to wait for Chronicles to release before I form my opinion on it.
I suggested some things in the past but it’s always better to try things then to just have a theory in the head.
I think Demo Rafts should be removed and there should only be 3 ships in Feudal that actually counter each other.
Castle and Imperial Age can then introduce additional ships including the Demo Ship and Cannon Galleon of course.
I’m going to vote yes, but at the same time I think we need to see some gameplay with the new ships before we really start pushing for analogues to the Chronicles naval play being brought to the base game. I think there’s a lot of potential to the idea but lets not put the cart before the horse too much.
Personal idea, with reference to Chronicles and AoE4.
Port:
Fishing ships.
Trade Cogs.
Transport ships.
Explosive ships.
The only unit here that are able to attack enemy.
Dock, or Shipyard:
Boarding warships.
Having a projection, or ‘spur’, as a boarding platform in the bow, and dealing melee attack in a range of 1 or 2 probably.
Having a high armor and a decent speed.
Affected by Forging line upgrades.
Arrow warships.
Firing multiple arrows, and would not change its projectiles after upgrades.
Affected by Fletching line upgrades and Ballistics.
The multiple arrows can naturally cause decent damages on Boarding warships.
Springald warships.
Firing a ballista bolt. The farther range allows them naturally to be good at countering Arrow ships.
A bolt cannot cause too many damage on Boarding warships due to the high armor, and the slow speed makes them easier to be chased by Boarding warships.
Affected by Siege Engineers and Ballistics instead of Fletching line.
After Chemistry, the projectile can become a bullet or a small cannonball since people replace the springalds with culverins and swivel guns.
Bombard warships / Dromons.
Firing a cannonball or multiple stones. The attack is highest, the range is furthest, the speed is slowest, and the cost is highest. Better only use them to attack buildings even though they can also destroy ships.
Affected by Siege Engineers obviously.
In conclusion, Boarding warships < Arrow warships < Springald warships < Boarding warships.
Use the Explosive ships to damage enemy ships which get close to your Ports.
Fire ships could be UU for Byzantines, replacing or not replacing the Boarding warships.
Longboats obviously would replace the Arrow warships for Vikings.
Turtle Ships could replace the Springald warships for Koreans. They could fire a bolt before Chemistry, and have strong survivability against Boarding ships.
Clearly the water battle mechanics of regular game need something new and changes for fixing.
It’s a issue for a long time. I remember that I seemed to have posted similar ideas before.
I like the idea of splitting Arrow and Springald ships but it’s kinda strange that Demo ships are the one military ship from the Port. I understand that the idea is that they are some kind of emergency ship but it feel kinda strange to have a Petard as a Scout essentially.
My idea for the main counter system:
Ballista Ship > Fire/Melee Ship > Mangonel Ship > Ballista Ship
Additional ships:
Arrow Ship (Trash version of Ballista Ship)
Demo Ship
Cannon Galleon
Trebuchet Ship (None Gunpowder version Cannon Galleon)
Dromon (Better version of Trebuchet Ship)
Feudal Age
Only Port is available
Only warship is the Scout Ship (Galley graphics)
The Scout Ship is weak and costs Food and Wood.
They have a long train time and are hard to mass. They can basically just be used for Scouting and harassing Fishing ships.
Castle Age
Shipyard becomes available
Ballista, Mangonel, Fire and Demo Ship become available
All Castle Age ships counter Arrow Ships.
This means even if you lost the control over water in Feudal Age you can easily regain it. Especially Ballista ships make quick work of Arrow ships.
Imperial Age
Gunpowder civilisations get access to the Cannon Galleon.
None gunpowder civilisations get access to the Trebuchet Ship.
Late Antiquity civilisations get access to the Dromon
Potential Trebuchet ship civs:
Aztecs, Bengalis, Chinese, Cumans, Incas, Magyars, Mayans, Mongols, Slavs, Vikings.The idea is that you have a decent all round ship that gives you a little micro potential by garrisoning land units. But that adds the risk of losing those units.
They can’t replace transports because they can’t even transport villagers.
Generic/Regional Ships
Anti Ship Bonus damage massively reduced. This is always hard to learn for new players because the game doesn’t show bonus damage and ship armour.
Ships should counter each other based on Melee and Pierce damage.
All ships can of course be upgraded in later Ages.
Mangonel Ships turn into Onager Ships and so on.
Arrow Ship Line
Starts with Galley
Weak pierce attack
Low armour
0/5/10 Garrison slots in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age
Can only Garrison Infantry and Archers (no Villagers and Cavalry)
Garrisoned Infantry increase speed
Garrisoned Archers increase attack
Cost Food and Wood
Affected by Archer upgrades
Ballista Ship Line
Medium Pierce and Melee armour
High Pierce damage (punches though medium Pierce Armour)
Use current War Galley and Galleon models
Cost Wood and Gold (more then the current Galley line)
Not affected by Archer upgrades
Affected by Siege Engineers
Fire Ship
Medium Pierce and high Melee armour
High Melee DPS
Potentially made into a regional ship like the Dromon
Not affected by Melee Blacksmith upgrades
Not affected by Siege Engineers
Melee/Ramming Ship
Potential alternative to the Fire Ship
Has a charged attack
Attacks much slower but with higher damage
Loses against a Fire Ship in direct combat
Affected by Melee Blacksmith upgrades
Mangonel Ship
High Pierce and low Melee armour
Same range as Ballista Ship
Do AoE damage (Wide enough to hit multiple Ballista Ships)
No bonus damage vs. Buildings
Slow movement speed
Affected by Siege Engineers
Demo Ship
Medium Pierce armour (Melee armour doesn’t really matter)
Basically the same as now
Affected by Siege Engineers
Trebuchet Ship
Very similar to a Cannon Galleon
No AoE damage at all
14 range (1 more then Cannon Galleon, 1 less then Elite Cannon Galleon)
Same attack damage as Cannon Galleon
Affected by Siege Engineers
Cannon Galleon
Unchanged
Dromon
Unchanged
Unique Units
Longboat
Not much change
Inbettween an Arrow and a Ballista ship
Affected by Archer upgrades
Turtle Ship
Not much changed
High Melee armour
Weak to Mangonel Ships
Affected by Siege Engineers
Caravel
Not much changed
Basically a Ballista ship that can damage multiple ships in a line
Affected by Siege Engineers
Thirisadai
They are very similar to my proposed Ballista ship so they need a new role
Affected by Siege Engineers
Any ideas?
Siege units
Scorpion and Mangonel Line gain bonus damage vs. Ships.
Ships get negative damage vs. Siege units (like Cavalry does vs. Shotel Warriors).
This makes sure that it’s easier to fight back when the enemy gained naval superiority.
Especially Scorpions will shine at this task because they are affected by Ballistics now.
Water play is fine as it is. In my opinion, the point of water in AoE2 is not to mimic land combat. Decision-making is not so much about which ships you make (this is fairly simple indeed), but rather how much investment you put into water vs land.
Well, you might get me wrong. I don’t try to make the explosive ship a scout.
To be honest, I think the game does not need an exclusively scout ships in naval battles at all since water is not as complex as land. On water, there is no obstacle, the locations of resource are not as crucial as on land, and in the Dark age there is no danger but only fishing ships and Ports. You can just send a fishing ship to scout if you need. Although that ship cannot gather fish when it is scouting, but you don’t need to spend extra resources for a exclusive scout ship.
More importantly, I don’t really like a ship that can attack in the Dark age. I don’t appreciate such a design.
If really needed, I may make Transport ships have a broad light of sight to act like a scout. Or, I can accept that the Shipyards/Docks can be built in the Dark age, but only Scout ships can be trained then. The Scout ships here are the previous stage of Boarding warships or Arrow warships, cannot fire in the Dark Age, and will be automatically upgraded to Boarding warships or Arrow warships when hitting the Feudal age. (The Arrow warships could not and should not be trash units. If there must be a type of warship that is trash, I would decide Boarding warships because they have least control to coasts.)
Anyway, I still prefer the Boarding melee, Arrows, and Springald bolts to present the triangle of counters on water. The stone-launching ships should be to siege, and explosive ships could not have to be always necessary for naval battles.
I agree with that. Strange decision in Chronicles.
That’s actually a good idea.
This is actually a reasonable logic.
Also would make them more relevant in the late game since they don’t cost gold. Not on real water maps though because there you’ll often run out of Wood first.
I don’t really think there is much logic behind the Springald/Ballista/Scorpion ship being bad against Melee ships if the Arrow ship is not. They should have higher attack and therefor be more capable of punching though armour.
Why? Mangonels/Onager are already not siege units on land. They have very little bonus damage vs. buildings.
Having ranged AoE would help prevent massed Arrow/Springald ships from becoming OP.
It is also more natural for them to have no ballistics and therefor be bad against melee ships.
But in the end I think a rework that keeps all the currently existing ships has a way higher chance of success then one that removes some of the current ships.
The AoE2 community is extremely conservative and any change to water would also mean a change to a lot of existing content like most scenarios that involve water and a lot of fan made content too.
The use of springald means a lower firing frequency and a minimum range, and speed may also be bulky, which are obvious disadvantages against agile and fast-approaching boarding warships. On the other hand, when enemy soldiers have a chance to board my ship, the archers on my ship can still shoot them fast on the deck.
In terms of stats, for example, the pierce armor could be 5 for Boarding warships when the attack could be 8 for Springald warships. In this case, each Springald warship would deal only 3 damage per strike to Boarding warships, but might be caught up after one or two shots. On the other hand, Arrow warships could have 4 arrow each shot and the primary arrows could have 4 attack and +4 bonus vs Boarding warships, so each Arrow warship would cause at least 5 and up to 8 damage per strike to Boarding warships. Not to mention, Arrow warships would have a better chance of kiting Boarding warships.
For more, the pierce armor could be 4 for Arrow warships, and Springald warships could have 6 pierce armor and +4 bonus attack vs Arrow warships, so that Springald warships could deal 8 damage per strike to Arrow warships from a further range, and Arrow warships could deal 4 damage per strike to Springald warships.
Dromons are already firing stones, and currently they are more on siege than anti-ship.
I just want the thing simple. When people see the projectiles and the trajectory, they can directly tell what type of ship it is.
More importantly, I try to keep having 4 types of ship at most in a building, whether it’s Port or Shipyard.
If people really want ranged area damage on ships, maybe the stats of Bombard cannon warships and Dromons can have a simple adjustment.
However, the reworked triangle of countering with introducing Boarding/Arrow/Springald warships should theoretically be more effective at maintaining balance than the current one. Having Bombard cannon warships or Dromons could help in addition, but for the civs without them, one should still have a better chance of stopping opponents when they manage to amass a large number of ships of a single type.
I’m pretty sure this water mechanism overhaul is a testing ground for the base game. My opinion is not to implement the whole thing.
My proposals are -
Divide the Dock into 2 buildings.
Add a scout ship from the new dock. I personally think this one should be a Feudal unit. Dark Age navy is too much for this game. No one will be able to use fish for economic advantage.
Divide war galley upgrades into 3.
Reduce Dromon range and attack bonus vs buildings. Make it available to most if not all civs. Can also be a Castle Age unit that can be upgraded in Imperial.
Why not ask this AFTER people have played the DLC for dozens if not hundreds of hours? Anything other than rock papper scissors sounds better in theory, but the end result could be even more stale than old galley micro.
Wouldn’t it be relatively easy to just change the Dromons. Or make the new projectiles look more different. Like having them spread out in a larger area.
We already have Mangonels on land so it wouldn’t be a new thing for people to learn.
I get that but I kinda think there is 1 more needed.
The Archery Range also has 5 units if you are allied with the Berbers so the Siege ship could be in the 2nd row.
I guess you want the Springald ship be more of a Siege unit and less of a fast flexible Cavalry Archer like ship.
What do you think of the idea of giving it a Scorpion like attack that damages multiple units in a row like the Caravel currently does?
The Caravel would get a Organ Gun like attack in return, that would fit better into the Portuguese gunpowder theme.
To summarize:
Port:
Fishing Ship
Transport Ship
Trade Cog
Melee Ship
Shipyard:
Arrow Ship
Scorpion Ship
Demo Ship
Siege Ship
Unique Units
Dock
Scenario Editor exclusive building
Trains all ships
First page = Port
Second page = Shipyard
There to make all scenarios work
Additional Ideas
Melee ships can garrison Infantry for more attack and speed
Archer ships can garrison Archers for more attack
Archer ships can garrison in Shipyards to attack
Archers and Villagers can garrison in Shipyards to attack
Imperial Age tech that turn Arrow Ship into Hand Cannon Ship
Imperial Age tech that turns Scorpion Ship into Culverin Ship
Fire Ships replace Melee ships for some civilisations
Mangonel/Onager Ship replace Scorpion ships or Demo Ships for some civilisations
Trebuchet Ship replace Cannon Galleon for some civilisations (like American civs)
All ships get cooler names then the ones I used since I only used them to make clear what traits they have
