It’s not about “disagreeing with the above”. It’s: “Are Khitans and Mongols separate enough to qualify as a different in-game civ under AoE2’s rules?”
Everything I read about them indicates that they had already separated from Mongols and were their own distinct peoples by the 3rd Century. This is an earlier distinction than some civs in the game already, like several of the Eastern European ones.
So, by what the game has already set out with other civ choices, the Khitans look like a perfect candidate and do not overlap with the Mongols.
There was the rouran khaganate around the end of 3rd century and early 4th century which was the first known “khanate” state. I don’t remember if Mongolic or Turkic people (Tiele?). I have troubles remembering names but a lot of tribes spawned from there in early middle ages (gokturks, hepthalithes etc).
Maybe you confounded khitans with Kidarites (also known as chionites)? They were precursors of hepthalithes, Hunas and all what came later in central Asia and India.
I don’t know if every single one of those deserves a civ but for sure hepthalithes and gokturks should be two.
Correction: xianbei and xiongnu were precursors of rourans which came to life only in 330 it seems so the formers belong more in aoe1 and the latter in 2.
Nope, pretty sure I didn’t; Khitans and Hephthalites/Hunas/White Huns are different.
Khitans occupied areas to the North-East of (and including parts of) Mongolia, while the Hunas were in the South-West.
Oh I wasn’t advocating for an AoE1-era civ. Just that the Khitans had already become established by that period, and by the Middle-Ages were a distinct group of people from the Mongols.
Ah ok then it’s another topic. Probably khitans should be a civ but also hepthalithes if they care for an earlier timeframe. And hunas is another thing entirely it seems (they could be an umbrella for Kidarites, nezak, alchons etc) so if they want there’s really a lot to pick.
Funny how the Slavic Serbs were Byzantine allies and the Latin Vlachs were Byzantine enemies.
I remember reading in a Byzantine book, likely Alexiad, that there are people speaking Latin north of the Danube, but they are not Roman, and are not to be trusted, as they often ally themselves with the Avars and the Bulgars against the Byzantines.
They are related to the Mongols but not very closely, kind of like the way Greeks and Romans were related. They had a similar culture to the Mongols due to proximity and living in the same environment, but so do the Tatars, even though the Mongols and the Tatars are not related at all.
I’m pretty sure the Mongols became much more sinicized than the Khitans ever were.
By the time the Yuan dynasty was established the Khitans were pretty much extinct.
I mean, we have Franks and Burgundians, Italians and Sicilians, Romans and Byzantines, Spanish and Portuguese, four germanic civs, four slavic civs and three turkic civs. Having one mongolic and one para-mongolic civ isn’t that much of a stretch.
Yeah, but the Golden Horde was an offshoot of the Mongol Empire. It’s also the successor to the Cuman-Kipchak Confederacy, and is itself also known as the Kipchak Khanate. So essentially, the Mongols, Tatars, and Cumans are all essentially overlapping. You could also throw the Hindustanis in there as well, as the Timurid Empire founded the Mughal Empire, but this is more of a stretch.
No. That’s not how AOE2 civs work. Different people sometimes from different ethnicity joining same army or political entity don’t make it into one civ in AOE2.
Yeah, that’s probably true. Still, those three civs do have a great deal of political overlap, which is more of a trivia fact than anything actually applicable.
But their cultures were very different. And you could also find Alans outside the Caucasus during Late Antiquity, including the Vandal kingdom, which is quite popular here on the forum.
Besides, we already have some civs with geographical overlapping, like Romans, Italians, Byzantines, Sicilians, Goths, etc. just in Italy itself.
Apart from cultural characteristics, some differences can be reflected through the technology tree.
The Chinese name for the Khitans is said to come from the fact that they had been slaves who were good at blacksmithing, although there seems to be a lack of iron ore where they lived.
The Khitan army divided the cavalry into three formations, namely unarmored light cavalry, medium cavalry and heavy cavalry. The royals and nobles from the court organized heavy cavalry to serve as the escort and the elite backbone of the army. On the other hand, tribes on the steppes provided light cavalry, especially horse archers. These large numbers of tribal light cavalry with almost no armor attack first, harassing and flanking the enemy with arrows from both sides and rear, confusing the opponent and forcing the opponent forward. Then, the small but elite medium and heavy cavalry charge with lances and down the opponent.
A unique detail is that the heavy cavalry used maces as secondary weapons, while the Song Dynasty cavalry used axes as secondary weapons, and other steppe peoples commonly use curved swords as secondary weapons.
Politically they are relatively peace-loving compared to other steppe peoples. Peace was maintained for about a century by establishing treaties and receiving tribute from China. They were also tolerant towards the other groups. They imported weapons from China, such as crossbows, and Han craftsmen they ruling also provided excellent Tang Dynasty-style technology and equipment, like armors. They also recruited local Han people, Balhae people and Jurchens as infantry and foot archers to supply and defend highways and cities. Some higher tier units can be manned by non-Khitans. There is even a document stating that Han farmers adapted well to the rule of the Liao and were unwilling to return to the Song.
They were also recorded by the Song Dynasty as being good at using spies extensively.
To reflect these, we can imagine:
Full Upgraded Lancers and Cavaliers, without Paladins.
A bonus related to Villagers. The extra Villagers bonus quite fit them if it doesn’t belong to Bengalis.
A bonus related to Blacksmith, such as armor technologies, can be researched early.
A bonus related to intelligence, such as revealing the location of the enemy’s castle.
Castle age UT brings them economic benefits and even a short-lived treaty ceasefire.
Perhaps they will lack technologies related to CAs, including but not limited to HCA and Ring Armor upgrades, in exchange for Imperial age UT that makes CAs cost only wood.
Tribes on the steppes, including and maybe mainly the Khitan tribes who were living on the steppes.
Not every Khitan clans were royal or noble living in the palaces, you know.