hi all. so the new patch dropped and sicilian got a big nerf, which require compensation. also italians got nerfed by the righfully needed archer line cost nerf. Italians always had poor performance in any non water map, with the exceptions of closed maps where they sit barely above 50%, but on open maps, they are now closer to 40% than 50%
i am focusing on sicilians and italians mainly because they are from the same regions and sounded fun to me as a mediterranean dude. maybe next thread will be about spanish and portuguese
so Sicilians:
Serjeants cost drop from 60/35 to 50/30
Elitè Serjeant cost drop from 1100/800 to 900/600 or 1000/600 (obuch is 800/600 iirc for comparison)
Donjons cost drop from 75/175 to 50/175, so same wood as a regular tower
change first crusade to: serjeants are able to repair siege units, castles, TCs, and other defensive structures. make the tech much cheaper
this way serjants and donjons become less liability and more usable, and sicilians get something unique for their infantry: a unique serjeants + siege push. the cavalier gets further nerfed with less conversion resistance from first crusade change, and there is no longer the hated “button”
Italians:
university and dock tech discount drop from 33% to 25%
age up discount upped from 15% to 20%
add new archer bonus: foot archers gets +1 MA from feudal age
Pavise affects spearmen line, so they have a non-gold options against cav, similar to how saracens have great camels and mamelukes but also halberd, and they are not forced into genoese
silk road made cheaper or no gold cost, like instead of 500F and 250G, make it 400F and 200W, and make it affect all team members (since it’s a TG tech and useless in 1 vs 1, at least make it good there)
-Elitè genoese upgrade provide 1 more MA (so with the new civ bonus, the base MA for elite geno would be 3, following their theme that melee units are not good but skirms and mangos are great since they have -1 range) or simply make it cheaper, like from 900/750 to 800/700, similar to chu ko nu.
condottiero gets +2 bonus vs eagles, and maybe 1 base PA, to make it interesting as a skirm counter alongside genoese. right now italians have no reason to train condos since gunpowder is already niche being 3 units basically and all those are not great vs italians, so condos have nothing to counter. their statline is also poor for their cost and they are basically nowhere to be seen in competitive atm
this way italians gets a nerf on water and on ballistic/chemistry discount, but get something more “generalistic” with age up discount, and their archers finally get something unique over other archer civs, altought 1 MA is not a powerful buff, can help in tanking 1 more hit and make your archer feel more interesting to play. elitè geno upgrade is atm one of the worst unique unit upgrade in the game (i also caught Viper on a stream not doing it even if it was heavy on genos cause it was totally not worth it) and 1 MA or cheaper cost is a little help, but more MA at least make them interesting and create a real “theme” for them. counter them with skirms and mangos, not cavalry. condos also are weak in general, and possibly the only infantry units without a bonus vs eagles, besides having no reason to be trained most of the time, and with italians even less. this changes could help a bit in that regard
I definitely agree with discounting Serjeants from the get go (base cost of 50 food and 30/35 gold), although I’d personally change First Crusade to tech which decreases Serjeant cost and training time, as well as Donjon cost and training time. For example: made 33% faster, cost -15%. Also I think Donjons should fire 2/3/4 arrows, increased from 1/2/3. Serjeants could just gain the ability to reissue siege just from the get go.
Beyond Serjeants+Donjons, Sicilians probably still need a military buff of some kind and very importantly need a design shift towards representing medieval Sicily and it’s multiculturality, rather than being Norman. So I’m thinking they’d gain Thumb Ring and Camel Rider (not Heavy Camels) and get a discount (say -25% or -33%) on all unit line upgrades for non-siege land units (reflects diversity). That’d includes Elite Serjeant as well. Nerf Hauberk to +1/1 too.
For Italians all I think they need is to have their Fishing Ship discount reduced to -10% and gain the ability to train the archer line from the Barracks.
This seem to me like a nerf, the resources lost just on the university would make Italians weaker, and you won’t age up much sooner by saving just 75 more resources between feudal and castle.
The upgrade gives +5HP and +2 bonus damage, so it can be even more cheap in my opinion…
I like the cost reduction on the sergent and upgrade
I dont think the cost reduction on the dungeon is good
Sergeant repairing siege sounds interesting, but I dont know if it is OP
For the italians:
I do not think they are weak or need buffs, aoepulse today (12.09.2022) says 49.59% wr on 1v1 RM above 1700 elo and 48.79% wr above 1200 elo (both on current patch 66692)
If you want to give them a flavor, maybe range units (or only archer line) get +1 MA starting feudal age, it is nice vs pikes and villagers.
I think this would make them a top tier (if not OP) archer rush civ: you basically gets to decide between
saving 175 wood and 50s on your archer timing (build 2 barracks upon aging up)
saving ~320 wood (build 2 barrack upon aging up + train 2 more villagers before loom) with the same archer timing.
(50s = range duration=2 villagers duration)
And the civ still got +75f from age up discount,which allow them to get an earlier aging up. So you can even tati rush with decent eco behind by onlu building a barracks and use the age up wood for 3 farms.
And then you have an easier time to go to castle age with the italian 120f/30g discount.
I believe this is too much, especially for a civ sitting around 49% win rate and with bloodlines for a scout rush alternative option and knight follow up.
Almost same opinion. But I won’t lock serjeant cost discount on UT.
These two and First Crusade Serjeant spawn replaces with Serjeant builds Donjon 30% faster and Donjon trains Serjeant 30% faster. Conversion resistance is unchanged.
For Italians, I can’t come up with proper idea right now. Elite Genoese upgrade cost needs to be reduced that’s for sure.
The entire civ was a terrible design if you consider what the original civ looked like
Like the basic thought process behind it is astounding, and seemed like it was made by someone that didn’t actually play.
This is a difference in opinion on how civs should fair on the most popular map, as opposed to relegated to niche maps. Check those stats again on Arabia (~46% , with 5 lowest PR)
There’s definitely room for buffs. Even if they aren’t bottom tier. They’re just uninteresting (among a few civs)
Sicilians however, are on the bottom civ of win rates (like 45%). They are not the main priority, but I thinj many people are upset that they got a nerf (bonus damage reduction) without compensation because of an obnoxious cavalier line, while their win rate was not so high to begin with. So they are coming to a zone where a minor buff would be nice. Whether or not they really need it, I am not sure…
These are all good but reluctant on the repairing. I think it’s a good idea but limits the combat potential on serjeants
If serjeants become cost effective at fighting, and can repair siege rams with siege engineers. You end up with some late game situations that might be too oppressive
Imagine trying to destroy siege rams eating a town, with serjeants running around repairing them.
I really like this idea, as they lack halb and you’ll get pavise for everything else anyway
Still think this tech is dumb as a UT. They could make it a civ bonus upon reaching imperial. Give them something that works in 1v1 and matters more in 2v2 even.
Could be wrong but doesnt this help them specifically more on arena than Arabia . When the former has the slightly better WR. I know they’re a tough civ to think of ideas for that won’t push them over the edge. Feels like people have discussed them the most out of all the civs.
Maybe because they’re more appealing than stuff like Malay, koreans or portuguese? Who suffer from similar symptoms of low PR, and only performing well in specific matches
Fair thing to say. I was checking over all maps. On arabia RM they are at 46.79% (14th last) over 1200 elo and 46.88% (12th last) over 1700 elo.
Being “uninteresting” is very subjective, and requires more of a “rework” (with buff and nerfs) than plain buff.
People play a civ either because it us interesting or strong. If people do not find them interesting, they should just not play the civ and let people who find them interesting play them.
If noboby wants to play them, they will fall to dead last in play rate and they will more likely get attention.
In the last 6 to 12 months there was a ridiculous post of someone wanting to buff magyars because they were “uninteresting and had the least amont of usable boni”, even though they were at least a top 10 picked civ.
So I think a civ can get a plain buff if they are clearly underpicked or have a clearly low win rate. Hiw interesting they are sounds irrelevant to me (as said, because a civ picked is an interesting civ for me) I think italians are not yet in this state.