Sicilians and Italians buffs and tweaks ideas

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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From the beginning of this topic my whole and main opinion is that I don’t see Sicilians or Italians need buffs, this is what I see, and I will never think those civs need buffs at all. Maybe other people think they need a buff, it is their own opinion and I respect it.

Many greetings

42

I don’t think that a tech that just boosts Serjeant+Donjon creation time by 30% is gonna be researched that much. It should at least lower Donjon cost and/or have some secondary bonus for Serjeants.

Personally I think 50f, 35g for Serjeants and then a 15% discount locked behind a Castle Age unique technology would be fine. Cost only comes down to 43f, 30g and Donjon stone cost to 149. In addition to this and other buffs I’ve proposed for Sicilians, Hauberk should be nerfed to +1/1. Bear this in mind, it’s important to look at everything I’ve proposed as a whole not individual changes in isolation. But personally I think a minor discount along with the training time reduction would be the right move.

Really my issue with Sicilians is not balance, it’s the fact that they’re basically just Normans with Mediterranean architecture. They need a shift in design focus to represent the unique multiculturality of medieval Sicily and it’s such a shame that they’re a poor representation of the Arab and Byzantine and other influences on the medieval culture.

43

Player need to prepare for the farm expire. They need to chop the wood beforehand therefore they will get other res less. It do happen before the farm expire

44

even if you want to look at it that way, the benefit of their farm bonus doesn’t apply until around 20 minutes. hardly what i would call an early bonus.

45

I agree a cost reduction might be warranted for Serjeants, their EU is a bit too expensive, and changing the function of First crusade might be ok. I personally think that giving Serjeants the ability to shoot arrows from Donjons (or defensive buildings in general, kinda like villagers) could greatly improve the synergy between these two and make Donjon rush actually viable (as I assume was intended).

46

I’d be a fan of that. I’ve long thought that this part of the Crenellations bonus was wasted on lategame, and that it should either be given to Teutons from the start, or given to another civ as a bonus. Just giving it to Serjeants preserves the Teutons’ identity as the only ones for whom it can affect all infantry, but definitely makes Serjeants/Donjons more viable.

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47

Yes you are completely right

48

Okay. If Hauberk loses 1 PA, then more buff is needed. But I still don’t think Serjeant cost needs that huge reduction. Donjon cost reduction after UT, I can agree with.

That is similar to Teutons. Sicilians always feels like old boring Teutons to me. And this will make them even more similar.

49

It is, but only applies to their UU. Unlike teutons that can spam halbs into defensive buildings and it’s locked behind a UT

Compare that to the rest of the overlap in game? Berber and Magyar scouts?

Tbf this is pretty misleading. Sicilians worst WR is specifically Vs melee civs. Regardless of what people have thought about serjeants, they aren’t cost effective melee fighters (unlike teutons champs or TK) and are better Vs ranged units, specifically unlike TK

Halbs are equally effective Vs Teuton cavalier as generic cavalier, unlike Sicilians.

And that’s why there are multiple topics about them. I think it’s just a cycle. ATM the focus is on Sicilians and Italians coincidentally.

But it doesn’t mean the others aren’t repeatedly brought up.

I don’t think anyone is denying this. But it’s not exactly practical to simultaneously discuss every single civ in every single thread. Next week there might be a return to complaining about Burmese or something

Just because balance is possibly in the best spot it’s ever been, doesn’t mean it can’t get better

50

That’s just one bonus. On the other hand, old Teutons vs Sicilians whole civ design looks similar to me.

That’s just my opinions on how I experienced them. How is that misleading?

51

I also proposed some similar ideas about Sicilians. Not all of them can be implemented at the moment for sure.

  • Serjeants’ base attack increased to 6/9/12, attack bonus against building changed to 1/3/5 (considering their weapon), cost reduced to 60f & 30g
  • Farm upgrades also grant +1 carry capacity to farmers (this can be for new civ)
  • First crusade makes town center (max 5) spawn 6 Serjeants; units are more resistant to conversion
  • Elite Serjeant upgrade cost reduced to 900f & 650g (to compensate the previous idea while making the elite upgrade affordable)
  • Donjons base attack increased by 1 in Castle Age and 2 in Imperial Age
  • Hauberk gives cavalry +1/+1 armor, costs #### & 400g (This will nerf again their Cavaliers against archers and defensive buildings, but the timing is slightly better. Their Light Cavalry will be a long-term option)
    Imo, Sicilians are such an awful civ because of not only their historical design but also the fact that they have received changes so often to balance. Still, this current change makes them worse. I’d also like to make their infantry inflict small area damage when killed, but this already was arguably bad. How about Hauberk gives +2/+1 armor (?)

For Italians, Elite Genoese Crossbowmen might have 7 base attack and -1 bonus damage, and Pavise gives +2/+1 armor although historically Pavise also affected infantry. But still Genoese Crossbowmen training time is quite fast.

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Nah. I don’t think so. Pre DOI balance was better.

55

Is it? Plumes being a vastly better unit have faster TT(18 v 16s). It’s only the elite GC that is faster (14)

Either this or àrchers+1 MA as a civ bonus (prefer the civ bonus because Italians need help sooner in the game)

Also suggested this. Especially considering their LC are even worse now . Previously lacking Hussar was offset by the massive 50%. Not so anymore.

Not a chance. Devs have specifically been nerfing 1C, why would they revert this? Even more so with an elite serjeant discount.?

We can actually test this in the sim. But gold is still not the limiting factor. It needs a food reduction. Look at how viable eagles are. And how non viable food heavy units are.

I made a long convoluted explanation of the impact of adjusting food Vs gold. But it doesn’t matter. Either the Devs do it or they don’t. But food is the number 1 Res in feudal / castle age, when sicilians are at their weakest due to the nature of their eco/military bonuses

57

yeah i would love that too, but i dunno if it would be OP to add it as a civ bonus and add a unique tech… in my dreams, i would make a castle UT to make genoese train at archery range, to make italians less dependant on castle to counter cav, and pavise ad an imperial tech, a bit more expensive, and buffs +1/+2, which would increase the appeal of condottieri as well

58

yeah excepts they are not, have a lot of weaknesses, poor eco, and got a big nerf on their main selling point without conversation when they were at 49% winrates and now they are basically without a reason to be played over other similar civs like teutons or franks, and also their unique toys are either weak (serjeants) or straight up a liability most of the time (donjons)

also no having a civ at 45% is not “fine”, is something we all should look to improve, same way as any other underperforming civ

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well i think no one denies that other civs need buff as well, this is just a thread about the italic-region related civs, simply because i have played them enough to know something about them. obviously buffin italians and sicilians would not prevents us from buffing burmese and bengalis too…