Well that would be quite interesting. Forse than portuguese bonus most of the time since that gives you food main + trickle wood, which Is better for early game then stone main + trickle food. Poles are able to do that because they can skip collect Gold to do FC, since the trickle requires long time to kick in, but would be interesting at least
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i am not disputing they were “strong” i am saying they are supposed to be strong. and they are not much cheaper, their unique tech is 60% of the paladin’s price. and they are not better than paladins vs ALL pierce damage they are better than paladins vs 9 pierce damage which is irrelevant as not many things do 9 damage. and they are not far better than paladins vs generic FU arbs “60 hits for paladins 70 hits for sicilian cavalier” it is better, just not unkillable.
they will do much worse than paladins vs HCA, all FU HCA LET ALONE hca civs. as hca will do 3 damage to sicilians kiling them in 47 hits and will do 4 damage to paladins killing them in 45 hits. but then again paladins do more damage to "although i did not bother do the calculations of how many hits HCA needs ot die for every HCA civ.
the problem with your argument is that you are talking about an ancient time for sicilians, i did not follow aoe back then i do know the new storng civs and buffed civs are not part of your argument. and i also know that milita line was buffed after that with melee armor as well as many new cav civs came out where their cavs can brute force sicilians cavs as well as HCA were less relevant to the game back in the days.
so what you have to ask your self is , are sicilians cavaliers uncounterable RIGHT NOW in TODAYS meta if they are at 50%? and the answer is, literally, every cavalier civ beats their cavalier, every paladin civ beats their cavalier, every proper champions can trade very well at least and win in general. helbs will still trade effectively but can be overwhelmed which is already the case vs paladins anyway so the sicilians cavalier wont’ be special in this case.
Something just crossed my mind.
Farm upgrades give 125% more food → Farms last 40% longer.
This will give them 70/100/150/220 extra food for no upgrade/Horse Collar/Heavy Plow/Crop Rotation. And there is no need to rush down the farm upgrades to have the bonus.
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I suggested something similar myself some time ago so i agree, that way they could use their eco bonus starting from dark age if needed or at least you would not feel obliged to take horse collar
It could even be 50% imho but would need to look at the math
Still, they still would need other things for their military. Return of their 50% bonus reduction, or at least 40%, buff for serjeants especially in imp (+1 attack maybe), maybe a new more standard unique tech instead of First crusade, to buff their infantry and serjeants and maybe even siege to make a new strat available to the civ, and maybe a better counter to infantry, since they have no HC nor arbalest with FU, like adding last Archer armor to keep the “tanky” theme of the civ
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The problem is, they’re just fine at 1200+, OP below that. It’s only at really high elos they become UP.
I still think the best choice is to double the healing rate of donjons. Healing is something only high level players can use effectively.
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At mid/low Elo FC is the main strat, and sicilians do that half as good as many other civs. Their main asset, the cavalier, is beaten by just about any good cavalier in the game. So i struggle to seem them as OP even at lower levels…
The wintate is surely inflated by the youpuddingatrat which is not strong by any means and laready dead infact, but any sort of decently executed tower rush at low level can throw unexperienced player off guard, so that is a false wintate
Even if we were ti buff sicilians (and they need that badly) at lower Elo people would still do the same strategies and would not benefit from It that much
Also, we can’t avoid buffing what is clearly one of the worst civ currently, if not the worst, Just because It does not suck at lower level. Balance is made for higher level anyway because at lower level pretty much anything works…
No it can’t. 40% is already free Horse Collar from Dark Age. I think I need to lower it to 30% rather. After all you don’t need to research a tech to get the advantage.
Regarding Donjons, I think allowing town watch and town patrol (may include hand cart and wheelbarrow) researched in Donjons may help a bit.
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You are rarely making farms in dark age anyway, so this would really only save you the 75 food of horse collar in most situations
40 or 50 % would mean that one could actually use dark age farming in some situation, allowing for some interesting openings for siciliana, and if in late game would be too much, then Simply remove crop rotation
I think the Sicilian farm bonus should be changed to ‘farmers generate a trickle of wood’ (think of food producing trees like apple trees). In the early game this would help them be generating more wood than their current farm bonus, allowing for more buildings of all kinds as well as help with archer/skirm production. By late game farms would pay for themselves and more, giving them an infinite source of food and wood. This would make them a preferred pick on maps that are limited in those resources like Islands. It also means they can assign a lot less vills to wood, so they will have a lot of pop space for other things. You could even justify 100+ farmers and just keep producing LC.
Unique technologies
First Crusade: Each Town Center (up to 5) spawns a one-time group of 5 Serjeants; also increases resistance against conversion (effect identical to Faith) → garrisoned Serjeant shoot arrows + resistance conversion
Hauberk: Knight-line +1/+2 armor → +1/+1
Civilization bonuses
Start with +100 stone. → Receive 100 stone when advancing to the next age
Castles built 50% faster, Town Centers built 100% faster. → Castles built 50%, Town Centers and Donjons built 100% faster in Castle age
Land military units (except siege weapons) receive 33% less bonus damage → 50%
Donjons can now research Town watch+ town patrol.
Weaker version of Crenellation.
Absolutely not. They can build castle faster.
Is this an inherently broken bonus, or only broken for the Sicilians, who have faster-built Castles? Because I have a Micronesians civ with this bonus, and I need to know if it’s OP in a vacuum.
Broken for Sicilians. OP for generic. Should have been +75 at max. +100 per age means less stone than pre-nerfed Franks for the 1st Castle. +100 can still be balanced if they don’t have any good early or mid game eco bonus.
Sicilians aren’t that bad at the highest levels of play. Most of the top 16 have sicilians somewhere in the middle.
It’s just at the mid-high levels that they’re particularly mediocre, like 1600-2200. Probably because they’re a pretty passive civ, and tend to lose to the sorts of aggression that becomes possible at that level.
Castle UT weaker than imp UT should be fine.
I suppose Sicilians is slower-paced civ. Franks discount is still far better than Sicilians one with their second or more castles and better UU.
Here’s an idea.
The problem with Sicilians is, if they’re NOT going for all-in aggression with Donjons, they still need something like 2 donjons for defense, because the enemy player can place 2 towers more easily than the Sicilian player can place 2 Donjons. But that slows down their castle age booming significantly. So they need the ability to get more stone, but if you make that too powerful, it makes their aggressive Donjon play too powerful.
So you need a way to boost their stone income, but only in small quantities.
What if Sicilian villagers could carry +15 Stone?
How would this play out? When you send your villagers to build a second lumber camp, you send them to stone first, instead. You let them all fill up, THEN send them to build the lumber camp, without building a mining camp. They drop off an additional 150 stone when they complete the lumber camp, bringing you up to 450, enough for 2 donjons and a town center. You could also do the same thing in smaller amounts by sending them to build farms.
However, this would have a minimal impact on focused stone mining with a nearby mining camp, especially earlier on with less villagers. It would, however, give an increasing benefit as the game goes on and bumping becomes more impactful.
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An even better idea would be ‘miners don’t need drop off points’, like khmer farmers. This has the same effect as you suggested, but permanent. You can save on a mining camp in the early game for both gold and stone, but it doesn’t really affect the overall gather rate and eventually you still need the mining camp for upgrades.
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Still Sicily with extra stone will be stronger castle drop civ than Franks. Would be the strongest tbh.
I liked this one but only for stone miners and if it replaces the extra stone bonus.