My take on how i would buff sicilians, as is pretty clear they are very bad atm. The goal is to make sicilians diverse then other factions, good at their playstile, and have a win condition. Currently they are just boring, weak, and with no wincondition
+100 stone (fine)
fortification and TC built 50/100% faster changed to ---- fortification, town centers, and military Building are built 66% faster (solid nerf on the TC, slight buff on the Castle, but adding military building make the bonus more well rounded and all normalized on the same percentage, which is cute to see. If too strong, can be lowered to 50%, if too weak, increase to 75%)
+125% farming upgrades changed to — farms have +33% food. This is overall worse in the long run, but it’s free and does not require investment, and applies even in dark age to give sicilians a small eco boost.
Minus 33% bonus damage buffed to 40% (if 50 was to much, which was not the case imho but ok, 33 is to low. A good in between might help a bit)
Team bonus:
changed to literally anithing useful infantry related. Even +2 LOS would be better and more thematic than this which does serve no purpose for a infantry/cavalry civ
Unique unit:
Serjeants feudal +5 HP or +1 attack (from 5 to 6) elite serjeants +1 attack (from 11 to 12) or +2/3 bonus against infantry, Castle Age serjeants no buffs
Castle Age serjeants are fine but feudal and Imperial are really weak for their cost. Making them a bit better, especially in imp, can also be and occasion to address sicilian lack of a good infantry counter since they have no good arbs nor HC
Unique techs:
hauberk made a tad cheaper, since it got hardnerfed back then. -100 F, -50G to stay conservative. Alternatively, make it much cheaper, like -200F -200 G, make it only +1/+1, but make it affect all cavalry units (so cavalier + light cav).
First crusade: changed to something more “standard” and not single-use. Conversion resistance is ok, but maybe something siege related would be fun, to add a new composition to the civ (halbs/infantry + siege) and would be appropriate for the First crusade theme. Like “siege units take less bonus damage and deals more bonus damage”
Donjons:
Just make them 25 Stone cheaper, this way they are not a complete waste of stone in the late game and in early game you can build 2 with your starting Stone. Alternatively, make them add +5 POP, but that’s the bare minimum really.
It is clear. They are the worst civ atm, and literally every pro players agrees on this. They are never to be seen in any remotely competitive setting. You really think 7 seconds faster donjons would help that?
Devs have been doing small meaningless buffs for them since months but without addressing the Elephant in the room: there is no reason to pick then over other civs, and they have no wincondition
They might be ok for low Elo who just spams knights into oblivion, but there are far superior civs even for that…and balance has always been made for the competitive scene
Only change i listed that would impact low Elo is damage reduction to 40% instead of 30, and small Attack buff on serjeants (which solely make then a tad more cost efficient in imp, but nowhere near “strong” tier)
others are bonuses that relies on speed and timing and transitions which are not really a factor in low elo games
What if, instead, you keep the action bonus, maybe nerfing it a little bit, but adding the possibility di make 2 farmers work per farm?
This would be a pretty bonus in the early game, saving much food, and would synergize with the current bonus. With more and more farms built, the bumping would effect negativly the bonus. If too much OP, it could be applied only for farm in a certain range with the TC.
With a simple click, you can simply select games White real balance relevance, which is mid to high Elo, and see the difference
Also, you have the almost unanimous opinion of all the pros of the game
In 2024 we should know these stats mean very little…mainly because is pretty clear that they are avoided like the plague in any competitive setting, and talked trash by any good player.
No I can’t. There is no option for that on latest patch as it is still on sneak peak.
Hera - Sicilians got some nice buff there.
########################################### TheViper - Sicilians will stay pretty weak. But you can make Donjon easier now.
###########################################
Edit - Links got broken. Thanks forum.
I don’t follow stream. Did Hera change his opinion?
Why?
We have stat for competitive settings as well.
We can’t seriously asking for a rework after 8 days of balance change.
Looking at the sneak peak for Sicilians: in 1200+, they rise 30 spots to #13 (at 51.18% ± 2.62). I’m not seeing them in 1900+, but the uncertainties are close to ± 10% (which means sample size is too small to be meaningful).
My guess is that their ability to wall faster is really helping them out - they’re more likely to be fully walled before an opponent attacks, and walling is a standard activity done in most games. It probably doesn’t end up as walling 50% faster in practice (due to walk time and other buildings mixed in), but it would still be a fair bit faster (allowing for the vil to either get back to work earlier, which is a small economic boon, or to wall in a larger area, which has its own advantages). The tower buffs (including Donjon buffs) probably didn’t hurt either.
In any case, I think it’s safe to say that their recent buffs have moved them out of “very bad” territory. Don’t know if they’ll be strong at a pro level, but they are definitely strong at lower levels, and their stats appear to be solid at every other level.
This would make it a stronger version of the Chinese team bonus, which makes it less unique. I also like having a civ with a bonus that specifically encourages getting the farming techs (beyond just the Pole’s folwark). Players also tend not to build many farms in the dark age, and it’s not too hard to get the first farming tech before you need to build any farms (in my experience, assuming I’m not trying to FC - even then I can sometimes get away with finishing the first farm after horse collar even if it isn’t the best way to use those resources). The actual numbers would change from 175/344/625/1019 to 233/333/499/732. Given that the food amount per farm is already less by the end of Feudal Age, I’d say that +33% is way too low (and makes it a clear nerf).
Their current team bonus functions as a naval bonus (and I suspect this bonus is thematically appropriate for Sicilians, but I’m not a history nerd). And Sicilians do have a pretty good navy (only thing they’re missing is Elite cannon galleon), so they’re perfectly usable on water maps (even if they’re not top-tier). Certainly improves them as a pick for migration-style maps.
