Indeed you trapped yourself?? As a prime counter you’ve yet to show it’s prevalence? For something so prime can you show it to us happening in a high level game??
You’re doing some high level gaslighting?? Buddy made 55 zhuge nu and 40 grend meanwhile he has 100 horseman and 13 knights???
To think we’d resort to informing ppl zhuge nu is effectively an archer???
Back to the topic. Your PRIME method is yet to substantiate, please provide evidence.
Jumping from topic to topic won’t work in distracting us from your original comment that garnered my reply.
And your reply took 20 minutes out of a 4 hour video to show the one time archers weren’t used to counter archers. One of the first games in that stream was rus vs byz, and he used cav archers to counter longbows. He rushed castle and could have built a siege workshop, had the resources, but opted for food heavy units instead (while food starved!!!).
The premise of archers beat archers is that they take the place of mangonels/springalds. The idea that archers are a prime counter to archers does not mean that basic archers are not also countered by heavy units.
I mean, OP even talks about how difficult it is to change an army make up mid game. In the game you reference Anotand had mostly barracks from the spears countering knights. That’s what lead to a MAA heavy comp, with a change to cavalry (with grenadiers as ranged dps) in imperial.
You’re just offering up stuff that confirms what OP is talking about, and you’re acting like it’s damning evidence.
You want a pro take on it, here’s Valdemar:
Talks about the strength of crossbow, and how mangonels weakness contributes to that.
What rock paper scissors?? Springalds >mango Springalds >bombards more Springalds >Springalds , Springalds >trebs Springalds >rib enough Springalds =culverins. I must be missing how you applied the rock paper scissors analogy to siege??
Any and all siege warfare that didnt immediately steamroll the ops devovled rapidly into a spring vs spring game. So it’s difficult to continue critiquing your post if the very first statement is unsubstantiated?
A. melee are all hard counters to all siege, but its not a given that you can get on top of them. This becomes the siege mini-game, “can you frontline your siege sufficiently enough to keep the enemy melee from surrounding them? If you can then you gain a backline advantage that you earned! And will now further exploit!”
B. Too many things have changed to explicitly attribute game length solely to siege change. As it stands games aren’t any longer, but more data is needed. Likewise more data is needed to determine how effective or ineffective siege will be. The meta has been revamped so its improbable everything will just make sense and we’ll be optimal in our unit compositions in the first few weeks.
The very opposite was true. Springalds were so efficient that a fleet of 5-7 Springalds with rollershutter triggers would easily and cheaply decimate all other siege units. Trying to treb down a keep? Enemy pushes forward 3 Springalds and snipes your trebs. The closest to siege ending games were Rus wandering rams flooding the map and that aspect of siege has been retained.
Again the opposite is true. Before if you tried to bombard or treb the white tower or Berkshire english could easily train Springalds from those castles and stop your siege, EASILY!!! NOW, how will they kill your bombards and trebs? They have to come out and play!! And now that springalds counter melee units, let english mindlessly send maa spam into springalds mass with a sufficient frontline. The very opposite of slower?
You literally just picked a 20min game out of a 4hr stream to suggest archer vs archer is prime? But back to what i actually said and did. I state the majority of 1600 elo games do not devolve into archer vs archer as prime action and then pick a game ( in an attempted ) to demonstrate my observation. Which still holds true even in the game you just referenced, the anochad rus FC VS francis byz on gorge.
Rus fast castle with golden gate is predicated on gathering almost exclusively meat because of the bounty system and bonus to food gathering. Pair this with the wooden fortress wood gathering bonus, passive gold income of relics, cabins, landmark gold, it only makes sense to spam horse archers as your primary unit. It cost the 2 resources you gather the fastest and safest and the unit has high mobility and high base damage which offers a response to anything the enemy has coming.
Likewise byz with all that lube are absolutely gonna dump that into longbows and spam cataphracts.
Consider this, how would this game you referenced (which still Is Not an example of range v range as prime) play out any differently with season 8 siege? That’s the whole argument you 2 are making, because siege changed now all we can do is this…
So share how old siege would change this particular example?
I have over 1600 hours in aoe4, 5000+ in all other titles. I’m not here to talk about rank, I’m here to talk about balance.
None of that matters, you’re just trying to disqualify feedback you disagree with using criteria you’re making up on the spot.
There seems to be a pressing need from some posters to invalidate feedback they disagree with. This isn’t productive to discussion, and it’s taking a more personal tone. We don’t need to go over expertise to talk about likes and dislikes.
It starts with only taking 1600+ MMR seriously, it’s ridiculous. You guys were using the concept of it being boring to you personally, but critics are being held to the standard of a tournament level player. This is bad faith. I hope people don’t get suckered into arguing with low level stuff like this.
Please watch the anotand stream you posted in its entirety. Please watch the valdemar game I posted. It was given to you already.
Every time this happens I blame myself. Guys, I already said I was done. Stop badgering me, this is more annoying than informative.
“Siege rework is terrible” is a valid opinion as is any opinion. But the moments you start alleging facts then you open up your opinion to factual critique.
If one supposes a thing happens then one should be able to demonstrate it happening or has happened?
Archer vs archer is prime? Then show it!
Season 8 siege sped games up compared to season 9? Then show it!
Fights vs English turtle take long and are harder now? Then show it?
As soon as someone offers a challenge/rebuttal to your claims…yall decry, " bad faith "???
Anotand did not make cav archers to answer longbows. Anotand was already gonna spam horse archers from the get go as most high level Rus fast castle players do.
Having faltered in furnishing even one clear example of archer vs archer as prime. He’s now given me the task of watching the whole 4hr stream. Its only then it will become clear to me that archer vs archer is indeed PRIME? But for you to know that watching the whole stream is what is necessary it would mean you watched the whole stream? And if you watched the whole stream then you should be able to pick out the games (plural) that demonstrate archer vs archer as prime??
Lastly you can’t offer a rebuttal THEN SAY “I’m done!!”
Well obviously, but it’s not what MedicMaaaan thought.
Someone who thinks cav archers counter archers instantly disqualifies himself in any kind of discussion about balance. Which is why I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and asked him what he meant by that.
The first to make mangos would then have to make a million springs to protect his mangos from other springs. The guy with mass springs already had or was making mass range units to kill enemy melee. So siege warfare always devolved into mega mass springalds a few non springs siege and a front of some sort to keep the siege from being overwhelmed by bio units.
In PUP mangos had zero tracking so range units could stutter step mangos to death but in season 9 live, range will get blisted trying to merely snipe mango or Nob with just range units, unless we’re talking rangers/lb*.
Fact check my numbers. Mangonel has 130HP with 80% range resistances which effectively gives that Mangonel 650HP vs pure range attack. You’re telling your range units are dishing out 650 DPS before any of them get splashed even once??
You have ignored the fact that mangos and springs were super expansive to build. You didn’t really want to build million springs to protect your mangos because springs themselves were very bad against non-siege units. Often 1-2 good splash from your mangonel could have changed the outcome of an engagement.
The first to make mango often tries to immediately shed the blood of the opponents backline. keeping your mangos alive with a few springs behind was only the second priority.
If you manage to win an engagement with the help of your mangos, your opponent might never be able to make a large enough army while building enough springalds to come back. Even if they do sniped your siege units when you are pushing their base, you know your army is much stronger because they have spent extra resource on springalds. If you killed a good number of vills with this push. Then it is ok even if you didn’t end the game because your opponent is far behind in economy and they are very unlikely to fend off your next push. That was the idea of snowballing with siege weapons before.
“Developer Note: Our goal with the Siege Update is to slow down siege on siege combat by removing the anti-siege role from Springalds and Culverins and increasing time to kill on many siege interactions. With these adjustments, winning the backline siege battle will now mean you have effective tools for pushing on the field. Additionally, adjustments to siege durability have been made across the board to tune unit to siege interactions, specifically ranged units will no longer either one shot or never kill siege weapons and instead will deal more consistent damage to all siege. High level changes directly below, followed by the detailed change list.”
The devs do not agree with the advantages you suggested were present? Devs think the siege-fest spiraled really fast and it was the Springalds mostly to blame?? And the change to range resistances on all siege was to make the killing of siege by range units more uniform.
And not only the devs but the vast majority of high level players that were vocal about their opinions on siege hated siege in general with a special hate for springlads/culverins. Beastyqt aka siege-yqt is on record how he hated springs and only did the siege thing if the other guy started it first (…which isn’t always true… there was a delhi game of him vs louemt?Or Wam? Byz where he started the siege-fest first. But that’s neither here or there).
I’m curious if one can pull up any siege fest games of season 8 by decent players that did NOT devolve into springlads VS springalds BS??
The first sentence from the dev notes is what i think you and medic did not understand. The siege on siege and how fast it devolved into siege on siege.
And did they make it happen? I’ve seem more and more games where siege units don’t do shit (especially springalds and mangonels) when you win a backline siege battle. How could you call them “effective tools for pushing”?
In the past when you see a mangonel on field the first thing you do was to hold your army back until you produce a springald or something to take it out. But before that your opponent was literally having “effective tools for pushing” and you wanted to avoid battles.
You said in the past?? So you’re suggesting now if your opponent has a mangonel and you clearly dont have a springlads to counter (since this counter mech no longer exists) , you’re just gonna push into him indiscriminately??
Yes because now I can take out mangonel with ranged units in spread out formation, not to mention longbows. The unit that was designed to hard-counter ranged units is now countered by ranged units, how funny.
While longbows are the unique exceptions to this range countering mangonels, even this isn’t remotely the case until you can get the imp + archer range tech. Otherwise not even longbows will reach an 8 range mangonel unit from behind 2 frontlines? With only 7 range. Plus using some siege micro you can seriously decimate a group of range units trying to get in close enough to get a volley off.
Next veteran longbows with BSM range attack upgrades still requires 65 volleys to snipe a mango. If the enemy has 65 lbs?? Its fair to say you one mango isnt gonna do the trick?? But if instead he has 20, 25 lbs, there is no way with decent micro those lbs are gonna get off 3 to 4 group volleys before you even splash them once???
You only need splash him twice and even in stagger mode a portion of his range are deleted, meanwhile has to group volley attack your singular mango 3 to 4 times? And that 1800-2250 resources vs 600 resources mango? What happens if you match his resources in mangonels? You really believe 20-25 lb will consistently snipe, not one? But 3 mangonel before dying?
Perhaps it is too early to tell, but it may be interesting to start thinking about switching to melee for ranged units when infantry or melee cavalry are close to them.
