This game demonstrates that English becomes OP lategame with this tech.
English Mains Only Ever Want One Thing! (youtube.com)
At one point English has no map control, no gold miners (only using relics and enclosure) and still manage to hold on for 30 minutes until the opponent ran out of gold mine.
Because of Berkshire, trebuchets were needed but they got sniped by freaking longbows.
English makes infinite maa just by having 100 farms and force the opponent to go handcannoneer or xbow, whom English easily snipe with gold-free longbows.
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And why not? Any civ that historically used arrows for long enough produced bows that were basically the same as longbows. Mongols averages 110 lbs on warbows up to 160+. Crimeans cranked the numbers to 200lbs+. Japanese, had asymmetrical bows, south asians had laminated bows, etc. that achived 110 - 130+lbs. English longbows were anywhere from 130 - 200lbs+.
Best thing about the longbow was that it was among the highest end bows, with the shortest production cycle. ACTUAL english identity at the time was having the best plate armor for man and horse.
To have this ranger bs for âciv identityâ aint gonna do it.
Itâs not about historical accuracy it is because the longbow is the only unique unit english have. Now sure its feature doesnât necessarily need to be range but abbasids already have faster fire rate archers, japanese have cheaper so I guess you could lower its range and give it more attack and hp but I donât think thats likely to happen at all. What you cannot do is buff all other archers in the same way longbow is and not buff the longbow itself, it needs something that sets it apart.
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And that setting apart can be literally anything but 9 range 40% attack rate roiding anti-everything trash unit. They already have the ranger to do most of that with higher base damage.
Nah, having a default of 7 range in age 2 is enough of an advantage for longbows. The rest can be having wynguard and the return of mass trebs with shattering projectiles.
Thatâs simply not fair just completely negating a unique unit in imperial and the only unique unit they have as well.
Then dont complain if everyone askes to delete wynguard rangers and footmen - since those appaently dont exist.
Lets get rid of shattering projectiles too, eh?
Itâs a bit silly⊠longbowman have 2 extra range by default. Silk bowstrings is an unprecedented change to the game, it allows every archer to have the range of a longbowman. Longbowman still benefit from many english only effects, as well as 2 abilities and increased damage.
Earlier you equated this to camel unease or deflecting armor, saying how unfair it would be if the civs had them removed, or were temporary bonuses. As I see it, a more apt comparison would be a university upgrade being added that gave those abilities, and that it makes no sense to double the already existing bonus for civs that have it by default.
In reality nothing is lost by keeping english from it. I mean, aside from the extremely unfair advantage it offers them if added.
Wynguard rangers barely even count as not only are they locked behind a landmark choice but also not even available until imperial, most games youâll never see them.
What has shattering projectiles got to do with anything? Itâs a unique tech, rarely used and not particularly great.
The issue is you are upgrading every archer in the range except english which will be unfairly excluded, not only that but youâre negating the advantage of longbow. Itâs not like them having +2 range over other archers as they do currently anyway breaks the game in any way, longbow still lose to all their counters just the same.
Itâs what allows them to outrange outposts and secondary TC. This would worsen with +2 range on top of that. Like you said, having 7 range doesnât break the game in any way. What you seem to not understand is how 9, or 11 for rangers, completely changes that.
Also, Longbows are not engaged the same as archers by their counters. Horsemen cannot win fights at equal cost when massed, even without palings being used effectively. Early knights can fight them when the count is low, but can be whittled down and must keep their distance when there are 20+. In castle, siege is more vulnerable to them than any other archer.
Is out rangeing outposts and a tc that valauble in post imperial? Not really. Itâs not like they have the siege of a bombard so unless your opponent lets you stand there for 5 minutes sieging away itâs a non-issue.
Horsemen do win fights when equally massed in cost same as knights in fact in post-imp when longbows get this upgrade the cavalry also get improved biology significantly improving there HP even more.
Youâve definitely made your point, all the issues we have are not issues. So simple!
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Great we understand each other.
Perhaps the tech wonât even be added. Anyway I think most people commenting on this have not even played the pup.
Well, I had suggested the âFlemish Twist Bowstringâ in another post for Western civs, which is basically a way of twisting the bowstrings in such a way that it greatly improves its power and range and was very popular in the Middle Ages and Early Modern.
Technically I would do âThe Sameâ (+2 range) but with another name.
Now, since the name is âFlemishâ since it comes from Flanders, maybe the devs will reserve it as a unique technology for Netherland/Flemish civs, which I actually did a concept of.
On the other hand, I really like this technology, itâs quite useful if you want to keep using archers in Imperial, if you wanted to rush them in Feudal and you still want to use them in Imperial, mainly for team games.
It will also allow mounted archers, like the Rus, to be used even more, since now they will have extra damage against buildings with incendiary arrows and with Silk bowstring and Mounted Training, an incredible range: 4.5+1 + 1 = 6.5
However, for the English I think this technology should be evaluated, although of course there is a problem because of the âMercenary Conflictâ:
- Mercenary Longbowman: The Byzantines, and perhaps in the future Milan, Firenze and Netherland-Burgundy, have the Longbowman as mercenaries. And the Byzantines have the âSilk bowstringâ technology, so taking that away from the English doesnât really solve the problem at all, if the mercenaries of other civs have the same tech.
- Similar case, Janissary: I remember that the Janissaries had to play a lot with their âclassâ to the point of separating them as light gunpowder infantry and turning the rest of the handacannoners into âmediumâ range gunpowder infantry in order to balance them.
In the future this will give âa lotâ to talk about. Maybe the technology will be modified to say that it only âincreases +2 to common archers and +1 to âLongbowâ archers, and +1 mounted archersâ, and that longbow archers will be an extra subcategory. It would be funny.
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You made a good point longbow byzantines shouldnt effect from that tech too nice catch.
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This still leads to no one using the longbowăLongbow requires 10 foods, which may seem insignificant, but it increases food consumption by 30%. If the longbow is not super powerful, why should I spend more resources than others? Adding 1 has no advantage. If this changes, it will need to be enhanced next timeă
Longbow requires large-scale production to generate combat effectiveness. When each very weak longbow adds 10 pieces of food, it will be very expensive. Especially when the quantity increases,+1 has no effect.
Theyâre both unstoppable when they do show up. They ABSOLUTELY count. Pull out a real argument for your case - the English ARE too strong for silk bowstrings - wynguard ARE overwhelming, the english trebs have FULL SPLASH in 0.5 tiles after shattering projectiles. Devs literally ported the aoe2 version in - they donât scale down with radius like cannons or bombards. At 2 pop a piece, you make 15 of those, park something infront and simulate the napoleonic era.
And, according to you, thats fine. Since, its obviously not, beyond any argument, why take you seriously? Not a hint of logic in you stance. Well, since its definately gonna be a problem, time IS gonna tell you I suppose. But youâll be there crying about then too, no?
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All sounds great to me, Iâll try the trebs it would be nice to actually have a good treb as it should be if it has a unique tech.
Seems youâre just an english hater.
Im a doomstack hater. And I DO still want your argument.
Oh, and if you DO go the treb route;
- Frontline is ribauldequins - they exist, theyâre good, get 7+
- Longbowmen/rangers behind ribs to counter enemy ranged units, get 40+
- Trebs behind archers, 12 should do but w/e
- Knight group behind the trebs to handle surrounds, get about 10-15
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Cool thanks will give it a try.