Skirmisher/Imperial Skirmisher/Genitour changed into infantry barracks and stable units respectively, among other changes

I’d personally like to make skirmishers melee attack barracks units as well as to give them an imperial age upgrade.

Genitours would be a stable unit rather than an archery range unit.

Skirms would become effected by melee attack and defense infantry upgrades, and genitours would be effected by regular melee type cavalry upgrades.
They would be unaffected by the cavalry archer class.
(Genitours would no longer be part of the cavalry archer class.)
And they would both be uneffected by ballistics and thumb ring respectively.

I believe the shared units can be useful, but such civs should have two team bonuses.

For instance:

Vietnamese - Imperial Skirmisher upgrade available in the Imperial Age and gain +2/2 armor. something along those lines, or something to make the team units more efficient in trade cart heavy gold unit games without making them overpowered in 1 vs 1.

With an imperial age upgrade and their attack to be switched to melee(helps even further against archers) This would also make rattan archers mainly anti archer archers while becoming more susceptible to skirmishers which will in turn attack their melee armor rather than the pierce armor, this would also possibly help vs huskarls, but wouldn’t likely still be made against them, since skirmishers would then be used mainly by melee type civs anyways.

Archer civs should have the option of skirmishers, but obviously, not all archer civs should have the fully upgraded counter to their own archers, much like how infantry civs currently tend to not have fully upgraded counters to archer civs that archer civs instead have…
Let’s reverse that, shall we?

Most infantry civs don’t have counters or not fully upgraded counters in any case to their own infantry, (and most of those cost gold)it should be the same for archer civs in terms of their archers either lacking full blacksmith upgrades or for that matter the castle age or the imperial age skirmisher upgrades respectively.

With skirmishers being effected by infantry upgrades they will be faster than most foot-archers which will also offset the need for thumb ring or ballistics or the extra range from archer upgrades for that matter.

except without ballistics and thumb ring affecting them, being the infantry units they are now, they are more adversely affected by micro.

A little less so considering they’ll be faster, and it’s more important to get close to fire at closer range for early skirmishers anyways, it would become easier for players to micro with practice having the entire line be generally consistent in mechanics through the ages.

you assume they get faster. and squires doesn’t come in until castle age, and costs extra.

you mean like say…skirmishers already are?

Skirms are more of a defensive unit in feudal age, I’d rather them this debuff in feudal offense play for the buff in castle and beyond.

Better off than the current growing skirmisher meta.
It would be better without the extra range.

point is, you’re acting like its a foregone conclusion that they keep current speed and get affected by squires. also making them not affected by ballistics/thumb ring actually hurts them.

skirmisher meta? where? maybe in early feudal but that has more to do with Archers then anything about the skirm at all.

The one where you pile up skirms and run them under the tc, or using a single skirm per enemy farm to deny an entire farm with a single unit while never hitting the villager.

where is this meta?

yeah i don’t see this meta anywhere…

So if skirms deal melee damage how do you prevent them from just eviscerating scouts and m@a in feudal age, and then siege in castle? They would also start dealing 2 damage to vills and guess what? In AoC they had to buff loom to give +2 PA instead of 1 precisely because skirms were the best raiding unit back then. And if you give 2 melee armour to villagers now everything but archers is nerfed…

Wrong. They have either hand cannons, good siege or both. And it’s normal that their counters to infantry cost gold since the whole point of gold infantry is that they don’t have trash counters.

How is it a problem anyway? It’s only relevant when archer civs are fighting each other, so no other civ type is being involved. It’s actually pretty good that they can counter each other with a unit other than “more archers” because else games would end up super fast. That’s also why infantry civs have good siege/HC and cav civs have heavy camel or halbs.

Uh what? If they get no bonus range anymore it means that in castle age the majority of civs are outranging your skirms by 2 range. That’s enormous.

It kinda feels like you’re buffing skirms against everything but archers tbh.

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i forgot completely about this impact.

and this as well.

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It’s more important for skirmishers to get close than to have similar range, and the extra speed would help that. Just think of any generic skirmisher vs briton longbows.

This one has a bit about elite skirms, however the same may be done in feudal. 9 minute mark

blatantly false,

unless your giving them a lot of speed they will just get out microed. and again, what aobut hte impact vs melee units?

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Melee units are well and able to gain melee armor, not sure there would be much of an impact there.

As for scouts, without ballistics, skirm dps would remain similar as it is now due to missed shots vs swift units even if their actual damage is increased.

As for villagers, they are well and able to dodge skirmisher barrages so long as they remain at a proper distance, the skirmisher player would need to get close, which wouldn’t change feudal beyond 1 less range possible and would make castle age similar to feudal as far as that particular mechanic.

Except that skirms only beat archers with their insane Pierce armor.
Look at the dps, skirms have even with cost efficiency basically the same dps against archers as archers have against themselves.

Besides that, I think that giving skirms now melee damage when already the genitours are implemented that can deal melee damage. In this condition it would be way better if the skirm design would basically stay the same, but with increasing bonus damage vs the spear line.

The genitour then could be used as efficient counter against cav archers (and also against archers to some extend, but not as effective as the skirms).

And Scorpions could get bonus damage vs Cavalry, lose some pierce armor but move faster + have higher HP.
All this together would slightly nerf the power units as then there would be more available counters to them.

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First, this is a really bad idea, and not something that should happen. Second, it might just be me, but I seem to remember something about, oh I don’t know, maybe Teutons getting +1/+2 Armor in Castle/Imp on all their barracks/stable units?!? This seems like a rather self serving suggestion, as well as fundamentally reworking the game.

Scouts 0 base melee armor, 2 base pierce. Huge change in damage output there.

Except literally loom was buffed to make ranged units less powerful against them.

Alright, skirmisher base damage could be debuffed followed by an increase in proportional bonus damage to certain unit groups. It should also take into account an increase in dps due to lost accuracy towards certain groups.