i honestly need to chime in here (and please no hate) but…
i think 1 armor wouldt hurt the boyars since it fills the niche of them being an heavy armored cavarly units and also its important to compare boyars to a whole pack of situations not just paladins for example castle age boyars vs pikeman or tc fire maybe Kamayuks (eventho i think it might be far of that people wouldt wait for imp for kamayuks)
since for me and i do it mostly 2 castle boyars into raiding works ( even with the lower farm bonus it worked nicely) as there are also the druzshina route you could go
so ithink they keep a certain uniqueness but just missing a small bit
You’re quoting out of context. I didn’t argue the Boyar was better than Teutonic Paladin, but that it is unique. Example:
I said trainable at castle gives some niche benefits not that it’s overall better. And yes having a siege civilization possess a cavalry unit able to beat most units 1v1 is also what makes them unique. Your other points are addressed by my other messages. If you think Boyar is not unique enough then phrase it like this and suggest both a NERF and a BUFF, because right now you are trying to straight buff a civ that doesn’t need it by using uniqueness as an excuse.
The boyar is only better than the teut paladin vs targets that do 16 melee damage(after upgrades) or less (ie 2HS, hussars) and that’s ignoring the cost, and production bottleneck.
In every other way the teut paladin is better vs everything else.
So it’s not only boyar vs paladins.
There’s is no rational situation where one would be using 2HS or hussars and expect them to beat paladins anyway.
Teutons have FU siege with a UT for siege. They are almost as much a siege civ as slavs are. The point is moot. Both have excellent infantry with either a UT or a civ bonus. Both have farming bonuses. Wow these two civs are so different giving one an armoured cav is sooo unqiue. Oh wow the other also has an armoured cav.
I already explained this
Do we need big wax crayons to draw you a giant picture.
THE BOYAR IS NOT UNIQUE BECAUSE THERE IS A TWIN UNIT (the twin is even better makes the travesty worse)
But yes carry on ignoring every single point to contest your logic.
What about minor cav armour? Like 1 or 2 instead of additional MA. Catas have huge cav armour thus the niche but with 1 or 2 cav armour(ill do the math later) boyars could only take 1 or 2 more hits from anti cav units.
What ? Teutons have siege as an option but that’s far from being a siege civ. Just like Slavs have Boyar as an option (of limited viability).
IMO it’s unique enough. You disagree, fine, I wouldn’t mind making it more unique anyway. But don’t make it sound like that’s what you’ve been saying all along because at the beginning of the thread you and other people’s arguments were to straight buff Boyars (make it better than Teutonic Paladin)
I don’t think we need to argue more about uniqueness. I’m fine with a small rework to make it more unique anyway. But don’t just improve stats by comparing with Teutonic Paladin, that is just powercreeping the game
Don’t take Viper’s words always the ultimate truth, he can just overreact some things like Hera, even after nerf he called Konniks OP and that never influenced to nerf them further.
But I agree, the Boyar can get new buffs (+1 melee armor that I propose and optional: switch cost to 65 food, 70 gold).
Also keep in mind that Viper talks as a 2k level player, where any weak point leads to a defeat, while all of us are at least 900-1400 ELO.
The funny thing is, Viper never talk bad about any civ or unit. Even Elephant Archer before they got buff, he has never use the trash or bad at all. Or about the buff of Portuguese or Koreans, he thinks there is no buff really needed.
But even he knows, on tournaments, some civ have 0 pick rates and then it’s really strange to say they don’t need any buff.
I don’t think Boyars need any buff, they are quite strong. But yeah if you give Elite +1 Melee, it’s nice to have but nothing that would make slaves stronger or Boyars more usable.
I agree, it is good to take comments by top players with a grain of salt, but at least it’s some indication that they are not that weak, if he calls them the best unit in the game.
Still I don’t see a lot of arguments why Slavs, or Boyars in particular, need a buff, except for the fact that they lose to Teuton Paladins by a small margin. This tells more about the Teuton melee bonus than about Boyars. In fact there are a lot of units that die to Teuton Paladins 1v1. Slavs can fight Teuton Paladins perfectly with their excellent Halberdiers with splash damage.
But the Teutons melee armor bonus is fine, in fact that was the reason of why they are now fine, and the bonus doesn’t invalidate any of their weakness.
Taking clickbait titles seriously People overestimate how pro players approach unit strengths. They are not sitting all night there and solve complex equations to evaluate, they just play them, try them out with what they think work and sometimes it does, sometimes not, sometimes they are not even interested in finding true strengths
While i agree slavs don’t necessarily need a buff since they aren’t bottom tier. I think it’s good to at least try to get all civs to the same level. And a minor buff to slavs (by buffing the boyar) isn’t going to break the game, regardless of what these conservatives keep saying.
BUT i dont think reducing the cost of the boyar is the way to go. It adds less flavor then changing the physical stats.
If you simply reduce the cost, the result is still an inferior teutonic paladin. Now just more affordable.
Of course if i had to choose between zero buff or reduced cost i would pick reduced cost.
But i would much rather see +1 MA or +2 cav arm (still need to do the math)
For comparison the difference between the TK and the boyar would stil be huge (much different counters, tk still has massive damage, fits in a ram etc)
People overestimate how pro players approach unit strengths. They are not sitting all night there and solve complex equations to evaluate, they just play them, try them out with what they think work and sometimes it does, sometimes not, sometimes they are not even interested in finding true strengths